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"Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

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Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#101

Post by franciscop »

therealmarv wrote: post #49

Best comment from another related thread (not from me): So the libxml/libxslt unpaid volunteer maintainer wants to stop doing 'disclosure embargo' of reported security issues: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/libxml2/-/issues/913 Shortly after that, Google Chrome want to remove XSLT support. Coincidence? Source (yawaramin): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44925104 PS: Seems libxslt which is used by Blink has an (u…

This seems totally fine though? XSLT 1.0 supporter says the support time is costing heavily, then Chrome says removing support is fine, which seems to align to both of them.

It'd be much better that Google did support the maintainer, but given the apparent lack of use of XSLT 1.0 and the maintainer already having burned out, stopping supporting XSLT seems like the current best outcome:

> "I just stepped down as libxslt maintainer and it's unlikely that this project will ever be maintained again"

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#102

Post by _ache_ »

codedokode wrote: post #68

This is actually not a bad idea. Why should the browser contain a specific template engine, like XSLT, and not Jinja for example? Also it can be reimplemented using JS or WASM. The browsers today are too bloated and it is difficult to create a new browser engine. I wish there were simpler standards for "minimal browser", for example, supporting only basic HTML tags, basic layout rules, WASM and Java bytecode. Many th…

I get the point a minimal browser and WASM, but Java bytecode ?! Why not Python bytecode ? Seems unreasonable to me to add any specific bytecode support. By layout rules you mean get rid of CSS ? Sounds also unreasonable IMHO.

And no WebAudio and Canvas couldn't be implemented in client WASM without big security implication. If by module you mean inside the browser, them, what is the point of WASM here ?

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#103

Post by netsharc »

Y_Y wrote: post #19

> @whatwg whatwg locked as too heated and limited conversation to collaborators Too heated? Looked pretty civil and reasonable to me. Would it be ridiculous to suggest that the tolerance for heat might depend on how commenters are aligned with respect to a particular vendor?

It's a little jarring that the 1 comment visible underneath that is a "Nice, thanks for working on this!", and if you click on the user that wrote it, it's someone working for Google on Chrome... sheesh, kiss-ass much?

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#104

Post by fuzzy2 »

maratc wrote: post #77
nicce wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why flagged? The post was reasonable.

Probably labeling a removal of a format (which is somewhat niche anyway) as "killing the open web" was a bit hyperbolic and not entirely warranted in this case. Imagine that tomorrow, Google announces plans to stop supporting HTML and move everyone to its own version of "CompuServe", delivered only via Google Fiber and accessible only with Google Chrome. What headline would you suggest for that occasion? " Google is…

I agree. I think the article isn't really about the what but about the how. Which does appear to be rather questionable.

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#105

Post by recursive »

diggan wrote: post #64
troupo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a discussion they opened to "gather community feedback" just three weeks ago. That one did get heated: https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11523 Google ignored everything, pushed on with the removal, and now pre-emptively closed this discussion, too

> Google ignored everything, pushed on with the removal, and now pre-emptively closed this discussion, too To be fair to Google, they've consistently steam-rolled the standards processes like that for as long as I can remember, so it really isn't new.

I don't understand how this is any more fair to Google than the quoted statement.

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#106

Post by recursive »

icedchai wrote: post #82
raincole wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet, the web has been prospering for two decades in spite of the quasi-monopoly state of browsers. It's the living evidence that the dominant browser vendor doesn't has as much power as people imagine.

More like three decades, but I get your point. ;) I remember running Netscape 0.9 something back in 1994.

I remember when you could go down to Circuit City and buy a web browser for money. It came in a cardboard box. Shortly after the era you describe.

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#107

Post by dfxm12 »

maratc wrote: post #77
nicce wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why flagged? The post was reasonable.

Probably labeling a removal of a format (which is somewhat niche anyway) as "killing the open web" was a bit hyperbolic and not entirely warranted in this case. Imagine that tomorrow, Google announces plans to stop supporting HTML and move everyone to its own version of "CompuServe", delivered only via Google Fiber and accessible only with Google Chrome. What headline would you suggest for that occasion? " Google is…

I don't think that would be the reason, as mods regularly change headlines of otherwise fine discussion threads instead of killing them.

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#108

Post by raverbashing »

coldpie wrote: post #26

I have no opinion on this, just sharing my one-and-only XSLT story. My first job in software was as a software test development intern at a ~500 employee non-profit, in about 2008 when I was about 19 or 20 years old. Writing software to test software. One of my tasks during the 2 years I worked there was to write documentation for their XML test data format. The test data was written in XML documents, then run throug…

We can laugh at NFTs but honestly there are a lot of technical solutions that fit the "kinda works/kinda seems like a good idea" but in the end it's a house of cards with a vested interest

Imagine people put energy into writing that thick of a book about XML. To be filed into the Theology section of a library

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#109

Post by arwhatever »

coldpie wrote: post #26

I have no opinion on this, just sharing my one-and-only XSLT story. My first job in software was as a software test development intern at a ~500 employee non-profit, in about 2008 when I was about 19 or 20 years old. Writing software to test software. One of my tasks during the 2 years I worked there was to write documentation for their XML test data format. The test data was written in XML documents, then run throug…

“Yo dawg, I heard you liked XML …”

Re: "Remove mentions of XSLT from the html spec"

#110

Post by 9dev »

codedokode wrote: post #68

This is actually not a bad idea. Why should the browser contain a specific template engine, like XSLT, and not Jinja for example? Also it can be reimplemented using JS or WASM. The browsers today are too bloated and it is difficult to create a new browser engine. I wish there were simpler standards for "minimal browser", for example, supporting only basic HTML tags, basic layout rules, WASM and Java bytecode. Many th…

While this sounds crazy at first, I could warm for several incremental layers of features, where browsers could choose to implement support for only a set of layers. The lowest layer would be something like HTTP with plain text, the next one HTML, then CSS with basic selectors, then CSS with the full selector set, then ECMA and WASM, then device APIs, and so forth.

Would make it possible to create spec-compliant browsers with a subset of the web platform, fulfilling different use cases without ripping out essentials or hacking them in.

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