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Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

autoexpress.co.uk

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Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#231

Post by dfxm12 »

tux1968 wrote: post #229
dare944 wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturers have been shipping cars with detuned engines forever, and tuners have been tweaking them to unlock the hidden power for just as long. Back in the beginning of the century I owned a 2000 Audi S4 twin-turbo. The torque curve on it looked like a perfect plateau between 2,500 and 5,300 rpm. I replaced the entire ECU with a chipped duplicate (a five minute swap) and instantly gained 50 horsepower. Of course,…

This is an honest question, because I have no knowledge about cars at all. Could the "detuning" rather be interpreted as akin to the "binning" that CPU manufacturers do? So, if you buy a higher model car, you get qualified and tested parts for that performance rating. And if you buy a lower model, and "overclock" it, you're on your own?

I don't know if I exactly follow the analogy, but engines are not binned like CPU's. If you have questions about if you're "on your own" with mods, check with whoever has your warranty and insurance. It might be different car to car or even state to state. Likely, you can get some work done at a dealership that won't void your warranty and tune to a level that doesn't affect your insurance.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#232

Post by Grimeton »

onre wrote: post #193
delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true of all 'sub-models' of a given make and model. Consider the BMW G20 3-series petrol cars. Essentially all trims except the M340i have twin-turbo 2-litre inline-4 B48 engines. The engine output is tuned by the engine control unit (ECU, which is a bit of software running on an embedded computer) depending on the trim: 318i gets 115 kW, 320i is 125 kW, 330i is 190 kW. There are occasional hardware differences—…

Intake and exhaust manifold shapes affect the power and torque characteristics of the engine. Also, these are not cheap parts. Also a quick glance at the parts catalogue suggests that the example engine, BMW B48, has different pistons and connecting rods for different tune levels, suggesting that the cast engine block is one of the few components which are actually interchangeable between the versions. Didn't check,…

THIS.

The idea that those engines don't differ is an urban myth that exists at least since the mid 1990s and the first TDIs.

Of course they differ in more than one way and using the higher configuration can easily destroy them.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#233

Post by Grimeton »

Because everybody is fighting over legal/illegal tuning:

When you just change your software and you gain 50bhp that DOES NOT make your car faster. The gears still have the same ratio and the maximum speed doesn't change because the engine went up to max rpm at 200bhp and now goes up to max rpm at 250bhp.

Even raising the max rpm won't get you anywhere because to go from let's say 6500rpm to 8000rpm requires so much power and modifications that you won't achieve that with software alone.

So as long as only the software is changed the maximum operating parameters of the car are NOT changed.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#234

Post by jqpabc123 »

SoftTalker wrote: post #208
jqpabc123 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s far from unique to VW. I have found that there are very few absolutes in life --- so use your best judgment. In my judgment, European manufacturers have jumped on this bandwagon more than most. Probably out of desperation and necessity --- they can't compete solely on price. As another example, Mercedes vehicles seem to be good for about 3 years before the planned maintenance (aka gouging) really starts kicking…

For used car buyers this is a boon. You can pick up a nice older E class for a few thousand dollars if you know a bit about what to look for and what to avoid.

Yes, this might make sense if you could do the maintenance yourself --- but this is not at all easy or even possible in some cases without expensive/specialized electronic tools --- and this is all by design.

Something that should be simple like changing the battery is actually an intricate process on some models involving all sorts of resets and nonsense. A mistake can "brick" your car. I know someone who did this and had to have the car towed to the dealership where they were subjected to a good ole fashioned ($$$) reaming --- all for a dead battery.

https://www.mercedesmedic.com/mercedes-battery-replacement-d...

For me, a 5 year old Mercedes is just not worth the headache --- and again, this is by design IMO. If you choose to buy one for basic transportation, my advice is make sure you have a backup vehicle.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#235

Post by antonkochubey »

delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #178
Melatonic wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What cars is this true for and does it include all insurances ?

It's true of all 'sub-models' of a given make and model. Consider the BMW G20 3-series petrol cars. Essentially all trims except the M340i have twin-turbo 2-litre inline-4 B48 engines. The engine output is tuned by the engine control unit (ECU, which is a bit of software running on an embedded computer) depending on the trim: 318i gets 115 kW, 320i is 125 kW, 330i is 190 kW. There are occasional hardware differences—…

Different variants of B48 have different turbos and injectors (and the HPFP until the year 2020)

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#236

Post by Voultapher »

reactordev wrote: post #200
dpkirchner wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The turbo example would be especially egregious because it adds complexity to the engine. You're paying for the hardware and paying more for all engine related repairs in the future. The same goes for BMW's infamous heated seat subscription.

I wish the smartcar didn’t suck so bad. We need alternatives to this “turn them upside down and shake the coins from them” approach to cars. We kind of screwed ourselves here in US because you have to drive places, you can’t walk. Even big cities aren’t that walkable (with the exception of a dozen neighborhoods sprinkled about a half dozen cities).

> Forget F1: the only car race that matters now is the race to turn your car into a digital extraction machine, a high-speed inkjet printer on wheels, stealing your private data as it picks your pocket. Your car's digital infrastructure is a costly, dangerous nightmare – but for automakers in pursuit of postcapitalist utopia, it's a dream they can't give up on. [...]

> But even amid all the complaining about cars getting stuck in the Internet of Shit, there's still not much discussion of why the car-makers are making their products less attractive, less reliable, less safe, and less resilient by stuffing them full of microchips. Are car execs just the latest generation of rubes who've been suckered by Silicon Valley bullshit and convinced that apps are a magic path to profitability? [...]

Absolutely worth a read https://pluralistic.net/2023/07/24/rent-to-pwn/#kitt-is-a-de...

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#237

Post by dv_dt »

giarc wrote: post #169
dv_dt wrote: post #9

"As the car is registered at 228bhp from the factory, owners won’t need to inform their insurance company, either way." So does this imply that if insurance companies charge higher rates for higher hp, that non subscribers incur higher costs for a feature that they don't get the benefit of?

The base is 201 and with the subscription it goes to 228. I doubt an insurance company would change premium for that increase, but I'm also not an insurance rep.

The last thing I want from a car purchase is subscription nonsense that also brings extra worry or work to make sure the car doesn't cross some annoyance policy threshold in insurance or operating registration etc. I think I'd turn around and walk away from a purchase if I discover the car has subscriptions built into the fundamental car operation.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#238

Post by Zigurd »

FredPret wrote: post #212
Zigurd wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adobe might be an example of how optimizing revenue can eventually bite you in the ass. Adobe is a profit machine. They have the best (in terms of making money) subscription model in the technology business. But the stock price indicates that investors don't think they can keep it up. VW is still in the FA stage of this revenue experiment.

Adobe stock has been heading up and down but there can be many reasons for that. Revenue and profit has gone absolutely nuts since subscriptions started and is clearly the way forward for them. This model makes a lot of sense for software but none for hardware. Adobe customers are indeed pissed off but they should fix that with lower prices and better terms, not going back to the old model that had them losing money.

After I wrote that, I almost immediately regretted that I hadn't used price earnings ratio rather than stock price as the indication that investors don't have confidence that Adobe can continue to extract rent, even though I wouldn't bet against Adobe, I wouldn't short them.

Kind of remarkable how low the price earnings ratio is compared to magnificent seven stocks. Only Google gets stuck with a similarly pedestrian price earnings ratio.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#239

Post by SoftTalker »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #234
SoftTalker wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For used car buyers this is a boon. You can pick up a nice older E class for a few thousand dollars if you know a bit about what to look for and what to avoid.

Yes, this might make sense if you could do the maintenance yourself --- but this is not at all easy or even possible in some cases without expensive/specialized electronic tools --- and this is all by design. Something that should be simple like changing the battery is actually an intricate process on some models involving all sorts of resets and nonsense. A mistake can "brick" your car. I know someone who did this a…

Yes this is more and more true of any car. And yes I'm assuming you can handle at least routine maintenance and repairs yourself. My newest is a W211 which is about 20 years old now. Reliable drivetrain, pretty easy to work on overall, most electronic systems can be at least read if not managed by a generic scan tool such as a YouCanic.

You can find them cheap enough so that if they have a major failure you just scrap it and find another one. If they last a few years, you have a comfortable solid car for way less than making payments and depreciation on a new one.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#240

Post by tarsinge »

mk89 wrote: post #116
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #112

The really offensive part of this kind of thing is that you already paid for it. Like if you wanted to buy a regular car and you could get the engine with turbo then those are two different cars. The latter costing more because it has more/better stuff in it. This is all fine and good. In this case, all the cars have turbo and you pay to have it turned on or not. The cost of the turbo is in the cost of the normal car…

As I said in other comments, this is already happening since years (and I mentioned Ford, but literally everyone else does it). Car manufacturers already give you the same powerful engine that you can't afford/don't want to buy and "shrink" it with SW. If you jailbreak it, you lose the warranty and bye bye insurance. You should not think that you're paying more for getting less. You should think that finally you can…

If you’re talking about limiting the power through ECU it can be interesting for engine longevity. If I’m buying used I’d avoid the typical downsized turbo engine pushed to its limit and prefer the artificially limited one as it’ll have prevented the previous owners to have wear it out too much.
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