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Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

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Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#171

Post by k4rli »

tomasGiden wrote: post #163
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #112

The really offensive part of this kind of thing is that you already paid for it. Like if you wanted to buy a regular car and you could get the engine with turbo then those are two different cars. The latter costing more because it has more/better stuff in it. This is all fine and good. In this case, all the cars have turbo and you pay to have it turned on or not. The cost of the turbo is in the cost of the normal car…

How about in-app purchases and subscriptions? The code is already there. Is it abusive? Is it abusive because it is tied to hardware? No, I see it as the opposite. I see it as Volkswagen simplifying production by limiting variability and giving you the option to get a less capable product at at a cheaper price. A 6 and a 8 core processor is probably the same die also and produced at the same cost. Maybe 2 cord were t…

It's not the same comparison at all. Part of the problem why IT people developing electric shitboxes has ruined the car industry.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#172

Post by voytec »

With Netflix you pay for licenses and ongoing costs like bandwidth and maintenance.

A better analogy here is having to pay Microsoft for unlocking Windows NT/Server's ability to use more CPUs. Paid-for OS is already capable of it but this ability is "paywalled" due to greed.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#173

Post by mk89 »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #153
mk89 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is unfortunately true and pretty much everyone does it. You should look it up [0] or talk to car mechanics. Ps: Just to be clear, it's not 1 engine type installed in all the cars from the same brand. It's more of a family type, to reduce costs. [0]: a 2016 (!!) article https://www.automotive-iq.com/powertrain/articles/engine-dow...

That article says the opposite you're trying to say (it clearly says Ford uses physically different engines for different variations, just that the volume is no longer the comparable or even advertised metric). That engine volume, size (and other like metrics) no longer correlates with power has been a thing since the 1950s ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_horsepower ). Which is why since then the tax is not compu…

I got downsizing mixed up, you're right. We're talking about something I didn't look up for a while now, so in mind the downsizing was connected to the ability to resize the engine with software. While the downsizing was done for different reasons, the engine configuration can and is often provided through software.

> One of the best-selling examples of ‘downsizing’ is Ford’s 1.0-litre EcoBoost petrol engine, which is available with outputs of 99bhp, 123bhp and 138bhp, meaning it effectively replaces 1.4, 1.6 and even some 1.8-litre engines from the past.

> Other advances include the way the fuel is introduced into the engine, with powerful computers and software controlling fuel injection to the millisecond and allowing the engine to shut down in traffic where stop and start is fitted.

They understood that with SW you can provide multiple configurations for the same engine. This I know for sure it's the case of Ford Ecoboost 1.0.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#174

Post by jqpabc123 »

hnlmorg wrote: post #98
JFingleton wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never trusted VW after the emissions scandal : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5r9rgg6yno Now I trust them even less, if that's even possible .

You’re going to struggle to find any car manufacturer that you can trust then because they all cheat. And this subscription trend is exactly that, a common trend these days. It’s far from unique to VW. Public transport (in the UK at least) cheats the system whenever they can too. So you’re probably best sticking to push bikes.

It’s far from unique to VW.

I have found that there are very few absolutes in life --- so use your best judgment.

In my judgment, European manufacturers have jumped on this bandwagon more than most. Probably out of desperation and necessity --- they can't compete solely on price.

As another example, Mercedes vehicles seem to be good for about 3 years before the planned maintenance (aka gouging) really starts kicking in. I've known people with $10K bills for the scheduled maintenance from a dealership --- for a 3-4 year old car that seems to be running just fine.

"Mercedes-Benz is one of the fastest depreciating car brands in the world!"

https://yourgreatcar.com/do-mercedes-hold-their-value/

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#175

Post by snypher »

mk89 wrote: post #116
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #112

The really offensive part of this kind of thing is that you already paid for it. Like if you wanted to buy a regular car and you could get the engine with turbo then those are two different cars. The latter costing more because it has more/better stuff in it. This is all fine and good. In this case, all the cars have turbo and you pay to have it turned on or not. The cost of the turbo is in the cost of the normal car…

As I said in other comments, this is already happening since years (and I mentioned Ford, but literally everyone else does it). Car manufacturers already give you the same powerful engine that you can't afford/don't want to buy and "shrink" it with SW. If you jailbreak it, you lose the warranty and bye bye insurance. You should not think that you're paying more for getting less. You should think that finally you can…

I'd like to know specific examples of what you are referencing. I don't believe you have the correct interpretation of this.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#176

Post by azalemeth »

tomasGiden wrote: post #163
Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #112

The really offensive part of this kind of thing is that you already paid for it. Like if you wanted to buy a regular car and you could get the engine with turbo then those are two different cars. The latter costing more because it has more/better stuff in it. This is all fine and good. In this case, all the cars have turbo and you pay to have it turned on or not. The cost of the turbo is in the cost of the normal car…

How about in-app purchases and subscriptions? The code is already there. Is it abusive? Is it abusive because it is tied to hardware? No, I see it as the opposite. I see it as Volkswagen simplifying production by limiting variability and giving you the option to get a less capable product at at a cheaper price. A 6 and a 8 core processor is probably the same die also and produced at the same cost. Maybe 2 cord were t…

I personally think the answer to this is "yes” and have never bought any product that did this. I don't even do subscriptions.

The turbo example is insane. It's literally unwanted dead weight probably slightly negatively affecting fuel economy.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#177

Post by pythonaut_16 »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #154
mk89 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a manufacturer perspective it costs less to produce and test 1 engine type than 5. So it's questionable to me that you believe you're paying more. You're just getting better hardware, but it doesn't mean it would be cheaper it it was specifically crafted for your needs. (= I buy 100HP and my engine supports only 100HPs).

In this sort of case my needs would be something like 'at least 100HP'. Then someone says we have this 150HP engine here that costs $X and we are going to charge you $X+markup for it (if they sold less than $X they would go out of business so for sure I will be paying for the full cost of the engine plus a mark-up). I say that's great, its better than my minimum requirements. Then they say, 'well actually, we are wil…

It seems you're thinking of the "full cost of the engine" as like material + labor to produce 1 engine. So profit vs loss is equivalent to whether you pay more or less than the unit cost of 1 engine.

Car manufacturer thinks of the cost of the engine as something like research + development + testing + sourcing + manufacturing lines + materials for all engines produced + labor for all engines produced. So for the manufacturer profits are total revenue of units sold minus total costs. To maximize profits they need to identify market segments and figure out the best way to sell into them, in some cases by selling one physical model at different price points.

If a manufacturer only targeted your market segment with a model you wouldn't get a cheaper car, you'd most likely get roughly the same car for the same price. (Ignoring design/feature compromises made to try to address one model to multiple market segments)

Not that I agree with VW or holding features behind a subscription. Just that we can understand the unit economics of why. And anyway subscriptions for hardware features are a different matter entirely.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#178

Post by delta_p_delta_x »

Melatonic wrote: post #152
mk89 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said in other comments, this is already happening since years (and I mentioned Ford, but literally everyone else does it). Car manufacturers already give you the same powerful engine that you can't afford/don't want to buy and "shrink" it with SW. If you jailbreak it, you lose the warranty and bye bye insurance. You should not think that you're paying more for getting less. You should think that finally you can…

What cars is this true for and does it include all insurances ?

It's true of all 'sub-models' of a given make and model.

Consider the BMW G20 3-series petrol cars. Essentially all trims except the M340i have twin-turbo 2-litre inline-4 B48 engines. The engine output is tuned by the engine control unit (ECU, which is a bit of software running on an embedded computer) depending on the trim: 318i gets 115 kW, 320i is 125 kW, 330i is 190 kW. There are occasional hardware differences—typically the intake manifolds, radiators, and maybe belts, but the engine block is exactly the same across these trims—they're all B48. This is public knowledge; there is a detailed table on Wikipedia[1].

Engine 'tuning' is exactly tweaking numbers in the ECU. A stage 1 tune could involve mapping a 318i to a 320i or better without even popping the bonnet; just a laptop plugged into the OBD2 port above the driver's foot rest.

Naturally, as mentioned by others, some of these tunes are less than legal, because the price, road tax, and other legalese surrounding motor vehicles are determined by the performance and fuel economy of the vehicle from the factory. A car is so computerised that nowadays there are plug-in 'chip tuners' that remap the ECU signals on-the-fly and just-in-time, and can be removed before inspections. It's not dissimilar to overclocking computer chips.

This applies across all car makes, not just BMW and not even just European ones.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series_(G20)#Petrol_engi...

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#179

Post by mk89 »

AshamedCaptain wrote: post #164
tgaj wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true, the performance of the engine depends on the version of the software - manufacturer declares that this engine with this software can achieve this maximum performance and the software can't be legally nad officially tuned or changed. Btw in my country tax depends on engine displacement so it doesn't really change anything.

In most countries I know of (almost all of western EU), for electrical vehicles, you have to register the real maximum power output by the engine. If a software update allows you to increase that over the registered power, then you are in violation of motor vehicle codes and would need to a) pay a fine b) then update the registration, which is usually a $$$ process. If, like TFA, they register the power output as lar…

You know that you can tune your engine right? And this is done with software that does ECU tuning. So in theory all cars are illegal?

The issue is not that you can do it, the issue (as stated in the VW article) is how to update your car papers to reflect the changes. You do it illegally with your friends? You can't. VW does it through the subscription? (I guess) allowed.

Don't ask me how, but when you buy such cars (with an engine that can support multiple configuration), you won't register your engine for something it is not. It's what's enabled to do. Simple example: you buy the ford ecoboost 1.0 100HPs. It won't be registered as the 150HPs model, although it's 100% the same hardware.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#180

Post by DennisP »

Incipient wrote: post #103
JFingleton wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never trusted VW after the emissions scandal : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5r9rgg6yno Now I trust them even less, if that's even possible .

They're reducing manufacturing costs by producing the same car, and just selling it at different prices based on performance. I think this is quite common with EVs especially, where the same motors are used in the base and performance models - they do normally add other stuff like bigger batteries etc too, but also cost a lot more than just 600 quid extra.

What I mostly see from EVs is varying the number of motors. You get the manufacturing cost reduction on your motors without having to actually over-spec your base model.

Even this isn't the whole story though, at least at the high end. The Model S Plaid has an extra motor but also uses different rear motors, designed to be more efficient at high RPM. And Tesla puts a lot of emphasis on parts commonality in general.

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