Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

autoexpress.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 325 posts

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#101

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #91
jqpabc123 wrote: post #28

Forget Netflix Better idea --- forget Volkswagen. This is just one example of anti-consumer antics bordering on extortion that have been building for a very long time. The overall idea is simple --- reduce the sticker price to a competitive level and try to increase profits with prepaid maintenance, insurance, data collection and other "subscription" services. In VW's case, this appears to be an act of desperation. C…

> down almost 40% over the past year. That has more to do with their legacy ICE business than with their EVs. Their EV business is apparently growing quite nicely. And they have issues with tariffs in the US of course. But so do all their competitors. > Consumers don't have to "subscribe" to this sort of gamesmanship. But some happily do. Modern cars have a lot of software that defines their behavior and characterist…

'happily'?

I think not. Sure there are features that people want and would pay for, but I'd bet given the option that a lot of people would prefer to pay a bit more up front then have a monthly subscription. Personally, I want that choice back. Every subscription like this is a shift of power from the consumer to a corporation with all those TOS that can be unilaterally changed at will and features that can be remotely disabled by some half-assed AI.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#103

Post by Incipient »

JFingleton wrote: post #81
jqpabc123 wrote: post #28

Forget Netflix Better idea --- forget Volkswagen. This is just one example of anti-consumer antics bordering on extortion that have been building for a very long time. The overall idea is simple --- reduce the sticker price to a competitive level and try to increase profits with prepaid maintenance, insurance, data collection and other "subscription" services. In VW's case, this appears to be an act of desperation. C…

I never trusted VW after the emissions scandal : https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn5r9rgg6yno Now I trust them even less, if that's even possible .

They're reducing manufacturing costs by producing the same car, and just selling it at different prices based on performance.

I think this is quite common with EVs especially, where the same motors are used in the base and performance models - they do normally add other stuff like bigger batteries etc too, but also cost a lot more than just 600 quid extra.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#104

Post by whartung »

mk89 wrote: post #85
jqpabc123 wrote: post #28

Forget Netflix Better idea --- forget Volkswagen. This is just one example of anti-consumer antics bordering on extortion that have been building for a very long time. The overall idea is simple --- reduce the sticker price to a competitive level and try to increase profits with prepaid maintenance, insurance, data collection and other "subscription" services. In VW's case, this appears to be an act of desperation. C…

To be honest, I prefer this to what other car makers do. Example: Ford. In many cases they ship 1 engine type and restrict it by software. This way they reduce manufacturing costs, I understand, it's just unfair that you have the same engine of someone with officially more horsepower and all you can do is cheat (with software that enables the feature) and hence say goodbye to your insurance.

I have one of these, but it’s not a Ford. It’s a BMW motorcycle.

At the time, the F-series came in the F-750 and F-850 models.

The motors are identical, the computers restrict the top end horsepower.

But, those aren’t the only differences. The 850 is more designed for off road than the 750. The bike is taller, large front wheel, spoked wheels.

I’m have the 750, the more street oriented version. But here’s the thing.

As they say in motorsports, there’s no replacement for displacement. My peak HP may be down to the 850, but I get all of the torque, which is one aspect that makes a motorcycle better to ride. Torque really helps with acceleration, and my bike will get to ludicrous speed quite handily.

Also in some jurisdictions, riders are limited by HP as to what bikes they’re allowed to ride due to tiered licensing. The 750 falls under one of those lines.

So I can’t speak to Ford, but I think the way BMW uses this in the F-series is quite reasonable on several levels.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#105

Post by fullshark »

reorder9695 wrote: post #84

Seriously people selling a product at a fair price and that being that is a centuries old thing, why does everything need to be a subscription now just because it's possible?

Cause there is consumer surplus out there to be eaten and return more profits to shareholders.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#106

Post by nelblu »

stego-tech wrote: post #27

There’s already a growing market for companies that just sell you a quality good without ongoing service fees or data harvesting/surveillance; cars only recently really joined that list, which frustrates me. On the one hand, I appreciate the potential such data collection allows: proactive maintenance reminders, repair scheduling, TCO reductions, and even factory-line improvements by identifying flaws before they tur…

> I’d like to believe there’s a market for smaller, simpler, EV-based “retro-inspired” cars that aren’t jam-packed with modems and sensors to phone home. Maybe someday I’ll be proven right.

This might come close: https://www.slate.auto/en

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#107

Post by Zak »

cout wrote: post #83
Zak wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably impossible to meet modern emissions, fuel economy, and safety standards without some computer control. I haven't seen an analysis of whether regulations preclude those controls being open source and giving the car owner full access. Of course the owner could make the car noncompliant in that case, but the owner can do that on current and past cars using a wrench.

When we think of computers Er think of solid state digital computers. But the first fuel injected vehicles were mechanical computers. I suspect it's still very possible to do the same today, but not practical to design. Also I'm trying to think of what role the computer plays in emissions other than ensuring stoichiometry.

Ensuring stoichiometry is kind of a big deal.

When the engine is cold, the mixture needs to be rich or it won't start. Engines with carburetors use a choke for that - a valve that blocks some airflow so there's more vacuum, causing the engine to suck in extra fuel. Electronic fuel injection can be much more precise about this, minimizing the amount and duration of enrichment.

Changes in air pressure and temperature change the ideal air/fuel ratio. Driving over a mountain will make an engine without the ability to react to run at a suboptimal air/fuel ratio.

Catalytic converters require that the ratio be kept very close to optimal to operate effectively. A small deviation for an extended period of time will result in a large increase in emissions and may even permanently damage the catalyst.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#108

Post by mk89 »

whartung wrote: post #104
mk89 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, I prefer this to what other car makers do. Example: Ford. In many cases they ship 1 engine type and restrict it by software. This way they reduce manufacturing costs, I understand, it's just unfair that you have the same engine of someone with officially more horsepower and all you can do is cheat (with software that enables the feature) and hence say goodbye to your insurance.

I have one of these, but it’s not a Ford. It’s a BMW motorcycle. At the time, the F-series came in the F-750 and F-850 models. The motors are identical, the computers restrict the top end horsepower. But, those aren’t the only differences. The 850 is more designed for off road than the 750. The bike is taller, large front wheel, spoked wheels. I’m have the 750, the more street oriented version. But here’s the thing.…

This is a very specific case, to be honest, and I am happy you can enjoy your motorbike like the model with more HPs, etc.

The thing is - for mass production, it has become cheaper for a manufacturer to produce 1 engine type and block it with software rather then 2,3...N types and to allow people to choose.

The subscription model in my opinion makes sense, because you can also decide to unlock the feature entirely and it stays. If not, you can try and decide. It sounds reasonable to me - they didn't sell you 4 wheels and a steering wheel with "entry level" model that can be upgraded to "all in the entry model + car seats, radio" etc. We're talking about some very specific upgrades that make the car cost less by default and yet still good.

Who the hell needs 230HPs on a daily basis? So shrink that, make the entry model more reasonable, and let them upgrade if they want to.

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#109

Post by jqpabc123 »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #91
jqpabc123 wrote: post #28

Forget Netflix Better idea --- forget Volkswagen. This is just one example of anti-consumer antics bordering on extortion that have been building for a very long time. The overall idea is simple --- reduce the sticker price to a competitive level and try to increase profits with prepaid maintenance, insurance, data collection and other "subscription" services. In VW's case, this appears to be an act of desperation. C…

> down almost 40% over the past year. That has more to do with their legacy ICE business than with their EVs. Their EV business is apparently growing quite nicely. And they have issues with tariffs in the US of course. But so do all their competitors. > Consumers don't have to "subscribe" to this sort of gamesmanship. But some happily do. Modern cars have a lot of software that defines their behavior and characterist…

Of course the FOMO for pointless features

Unfortunately, this sort of thing is not limited to "pointless features".

The motor for the windshield wipers on some VW models cost $600 plus installation which is likely to be at least as much as the part itself.

So just buy an aftermarket part and install it yourself? Sorry, no can do. The wiper motor is computer controlled using a proprietary protocol protected by DMCA.

Maintenance is not just a "pointless feature".

Re: Volkswagen locks horsepower behind paid subscription

#110

Post by jillesvangurp »

jmclnx wrote: post #17

Well VW just made my list of cars to avoid. Boy, that list is getting huge. I will probably be in my 2007 toyota for a long time to come.

So, you are not the type that buys new cars. Nothing wrong with that of course. I don't own a car at all. And I don't see the logic of spending non trivial amounts of my income on a new one. But why should VW concern themselves with what you or I want considering that we are apparently not in the market anyway? Especially not for a high performance/high status type car. Because, no offense, your choice of car marks you as "definitely does not care about that sort of thing". And good for you.

I might at some point buy a second hand one. And VW has a lot of pretty decent EVs in the market that are trickling down to the second hand market at increasingly more attractive prices. Probably not my dream second hand car (I think they are kind of ugly) but they aren't horrible vehicles. I don't think I'll ever want to hand over cash to the oil industry voluntarily. I have driven rental petrol and diesel cars in the past. But it just feels a bit stupid to fill up a car for 50+ euros. A few years worth of money saved on not buying fuel easily adds up to a pretty nice budget for a modest second hand EV these days.

Post reply on HN