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Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

josefprusa.com

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Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#51

Post by RobotToaster »

tw04 wrote: post #9
digdugdirk wrote: post #2

While I'd lean more towards plain ol' capitalism as the reason for small market players going under, the final point of the article (discussing patent related legal barriers on existing open source innovation becoming a main strategy of large industry players) is a very important one to keep in mind for people on this site in the hardware startup space: "This is a story from 3D printing, but all the areas with heavy…

> While I'd lean more towards plain ol' capitalism as the reason for small market players going under He seems to point pretty directly to Chinese subsidies allowing those printers to be sold under cost. That’s not capitalism.

Amazon operated under cost for years to capture the market, how is this any different?

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#53

Post by cluckindan »

BoredPositron wrote: post #47
cluckindan wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a misframing of the situation explained in the post. Prusa printers stagnated in innovation due to patents filed, making it more difficult to add features. Still, they did expand into SLA and CoreXY. Prusa printers got more expensive because most of the expensive components come from China, which raised prices and gave subsidies to Chinese manufacturers. That is a de facto export tariff. They do have entry-lev…

The Core One makes your whole last sentence obsolete...

What do you mean?

It’s listed very first on this page: https://www.prusa3d.com/page/open-source-at-prusa-research_2...

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#54

Post by _bent »

tw04 wrote: post #9
digdugdirk wrote: post #2

While I'd lean more towards plain ol' capitalism as the reason for small market players going under, the final point of the article (discussing patent related legal barriers on existing open source innovation becoming a main strategy of large industry players) is a very important one to keep in mind for people on this site in the hardware startup space: "This is a story from 3D printing, but all the areas with heavy…

> While I'd lean more towards plain ol' capitalism as the reason for small market players going under He seems to point pretty directly to Chinese subsidies allowing those printers to be sold under cost. That’s not capitalism.

How's it not capitalism? If your definition of capitalism requires governments to either not exist or not act to improve the conditions of their subjects (including companies), you have a definition of capitalism where basically none existing or only failed states have a capitalist system.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#55

Post by zevon »

tiku wrote: post #29

As someone that had open-hardware printers, they suck. They were fun to play with but not really ready for every day use. So perhaps a bad thing for the hardware side, but as a consumer/user I want a smooth experience.

That is hardly a function of the printers being Open Hardware. There are lots of unreliable commercial printers as well as fiddly open ones. However, the most reliable ones in the desktop space have mostly been open - like the old Ultimakers or the Prusa MK series.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#56

Post by farseer »

transcriptase wrote: post #18

One must admire China’s pivot from 30 years of essentially ignoring IP and patent law to the detriment of Western companies, to now weaponizing IP and patent law against the rest of the world.

American industry also copied plenty from Britain and Germany during its industrialization in 19th century. Patents didn't really apply to foreign IP.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#57

Post by mystraline »

razemio wrote: post #14

A genuine Question. Is open hardware even possible at some point? The advances in quality and speed are nothing short but impressive. I started 3d printing stuff in my basement one year ago (Ender V3 Plus). With the quality and speed improvements, comes technology which gets more complex every year. Companies spend millions to archive this. Why would they share it? I remember building drones in my basement (still on…

> Is open hardware even possible at some point?

It already is. And its been chaotic and amazing at the same time.

We already have open source:

5DoF 3d printers with slicers

Fixed wing and quad/hexa/octocopters

Medical drug fabrication (Four Thieves)

Electrochemical synthesis lab

Open source flow batteries

Stops and starts of industrial tooling (open source ecology)

I'm going to say something that is becoming less and less controversial: copyrights and patents are the real drag here. Individuals can get patents, but can't actually enforce. So they end as weapons as companies go after each other.

Copyright is also often intertwined into patents, so that if a thing isn't covered by a patent, copyright (with firmware) takes over. Then the DMCA and anti-circumvention shit.

The other problem here in the USA is almost impossible to source parts directly, or small fab labs that can do operations.

I was looking for a 5mm thick 500x500mm aluminum plate to be cut. Waterjet, plasma, whatever. I wanted it slightly undercut. I made blueprints in DXF and pdf. I contacted 2 waterjet companies, no response. Contacted a welding company with plasma table. No response. Down the list, no response.

As a creator, how am I supposed to create, when all avenues lead to "source it in China"? That... Is huge.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#58

Post by WillAdams »

razemio wrote: post #14

A genuine Question. Is open hardware even possible at some point? The advances in quality and speed are nothing short but impressive. I started 3d printing stuff in my basement one year ago (Ender V3 Plus). With the quality and speed improvements, comes technology which gets more complex every year. Companies spend millions to archive this. Why would they share it? I remember building drones in my basement (still on…

As a person who chose to buy an Elegoo Centauri Carbon rather than upgrade his Ordbot Quantum w/ a heated bed and enclosure and to then try to re-design it to use a CoreXY motion system, I would agree that is exactly the path which we are on --- the new printer came in at a lower price than just the initial parts order for heated bed and enclosure, let alone a different motion system. All of the printers which I wanted (Positron, Prusa Core One) or was considering (Bambu Labs P1S) were over twice or almost twice the price of the ECC.

That Elegoo seems to be supporting open standards: https://www.tomshardware.com/3d-printing/elegoo-launches-aut... was one thing which allowed me to justify placing that order.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#59

Post by lenkite »

transcriptase wrote: post #18

One must admire China’s pivot from 30 years of essentially ignoring IP and patent law to the detriment of Western companies, to now weaponizing IP and patent law against the rest of the world.

Many Chinese CEO's are graduates of Western business schools. They learnt the Holy American Dao of weaponizing IP and patent law from established US business culture.

Re: Open hardware desktop 3D printing is dead?

#60

Post by Workaccount2 »

China, being a planned economy at heart, has a "VC" system that is essentially just the government deciding what needs to be developed, and then Chinese banks lending without any practical strings to those developers.

Profit and loss, ROI, business plan, aren't really factored in. China wants to develop AI? You have some experience and want to start an AI business? Great! Here is a few million go make AI.

This is the system that led to those infamous ghost cities and billion dollar high speed trains to nowhere. China puts the carts before the horse, and hopes at at least a few of them get to the destination. They're not unfamiliar with burning tens of billions to get a few hundred million of value.

It also means that if you are competing against one of these chosen industries, you are not competing, because they are just burning daddies money, whereas you need to make interest payments.

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