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Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

zenobiapay.com

181–190 of 278 posts

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#181

Cofounder of Lopay here - we have the same mission: offer free payments to businesses, but we're working with existing networks to do this. QR code payments are particularly hard in countries like US and UK as you're trying to change consumer behaviour. I tried doing this in 2014 and again in 2019 - both failed to gain traction (aside from during COVID). In the UK it's possible to accept card payments for 0% via Lopa…

QR codes feel like such a step backwards compared to NFC. The UX with current mobile OSes is not good. And if you require an app, or even worse an active data connection, well, I much prefer a quick double-click of my phone’s side button and then putting it near the payment terminal. And I’m really skeptical about security. NFC is vulnerable to relay attacks and QR codes can be secured by using one-time codes or roll…

Yeah, as someone who just took a trip in China where QR payments are the most popular form it was clearly inferior from a UX standpoint from NFC. The most notable was a data connection. Cell service was pretty good overall but there were a few cases where we were struggling to get the payment through. Some merchants also have the ability to scan your code (which seems to be generated offline) but that leads to this confusing UX where you never know if you will scan (and should have the scanner mode ready) or be scanned (and have the QR code open).

And there was always the fear that your phone dies and you can't take the subway or purchase everything. It doesn't happen often but on some long days you really don't really want to be tracking the battery of your phone super closely.

NFC payments can work offline (although this is pretty rare) and can be authorized from a small plastic card that has no battery, no internet connection and is pretty robust including being completely waterproof. Plus 100% of the time I tap my card or phone on the merchant's terminal. No alternate UX option. Plus if you are using your phone for payments (which is a very convenient option) you don't need to open any app beforehand (WeChat is like 3 taps to get to scanner or code) and I found quick NFC reading to be more reliable than scanning a QR code where the lighting conditions and state of the QR code are not always perfect (it was almost always possible to get it to work within a handful of seconds, but often took a bit of fiddling around. NFC is reliably just tap and it works).

I still keep a few large bills in my wallet in case the card networks are down, flag my transactions or whatever else. But having this immutable payment card that is incredibly reliable and easy to use is way better than the phone-based QR systems I have seen.

What I would love to see if we bring phones into the system is a way of approving the transaction (including the amount) on your device. So for example 1. Tap phone 2. Review amount on screen and approve 3. Tap to commit payment. This is more steps but is far safer. That being said the number of times this has been an issue for me is 0, so it is probably better to just rely on the banking system to correct any mistakes rather than add extra steps to the payment flow.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#182
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One way to solve this problem is to have a certain commodity require the new payment method. If AWS for example created a new currency/payment method and made it the sole accepted way to pay for servers it could very quickly catch on as others adopt. Look how “Sign in with Google” became the default. I’m pretty sure the main reason Apple/Google/Microsoft haven’t done this already is because they would be directly com…

> The idea must get shut down pretty quickly by powerful people. There’s no larger conspiracy here. It’s that payments is a commodity now, with shrinking margins and high competition. It’s not worth it for most players to even enter the space, let alone compete tooth and nail for a shrinking share of the pie.

No conspiracy? Is that why the US government also tries to prevent other countries like Brazil from internationalizing their payment systems like Pix?

Apple/Google/Amazon/Microsoft could save billions on credit card processing fees by cutting out Visa/Mastercard -- but instead are pressured to accept "special rates" and warned to stay out of the business.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems misleading or at the very least incomplete to blame these fees on "the power of the free market" when the visa / mastercard duopoly exists due to regulations making the entry barrier to creating a new card network essentially infinite

I think that was parent’s point. That the US does not have as free a market.

> EU & UK cap it

suggests that was not the GP's point.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#185
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

QR codes feel like such a step backwards compared to NFC. The UX with current mobile OSes is not good. And if you require an app, or even worse an active data connection, well, I much prefer a quick double-click of my phone’s side button and then putting it near the payment terminal. And I’m really skeptical about security. NFC is vulnerable to relay attacks and QR codes can be secured by using one-time codes or roll…

I couldn't get a wallet app to work with GrapheneOS, so for me, QR codes are better, but they feel like they have different use cases. I like QR codes in mail invoices (very common in CH), I'd like NFC in a shop if I could use it.

This is a policy problem not a technology problem. If QR code solutions mandated the same policy they would have the same limitation.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#186
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like says the tarrifs are paid by the other countries, not the US citizens. In reality, there is no competition in the payment systems. Free markets mean competition.

There might not be robust competition between payment systems, but when I go to a store, I've got options to pay: Cash, credit (discover is dieing, but amex/mc/visa compete a bit), debit (several networks and all US cards have to be on at least two), I've seen PayPal as an option ocassionally, some merchants take Zelle, FedNow could if a good UX comes around (I don't think many merchants want to give out their routin…

I would be very surprised if Discover is dying. The whole point of Capital One buying them--well, a major point--was to have an alternative to MC/Visa on which they can run debit and credit cards, and so they'll be pushing an expansion of the Discover network rails pretty hard, I'd expect.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#187
post #167

Seems misleading or at the very least incomplete not to mention that basically only the US has these high credit card interchange fees of 2-3%. EU & UK cap it at 0.3% (0.2% for debit cards), and the rest of the world are closer to EU than US fees, if I understand correctly. The power of the free market.

The problem is not that credit card companies charge large fees. The problem is that they do not allow to pass the fee on the customers. Because of this I don't like European regulation - instead of capping the fees they should just make clauses that not allow merchants to set a card acceptance fees, illegal.

The clause that doesn't allow passing fees on the customer is the only thing that makes market non-free.

I think it would be only fair if people paying with a card were charged more. They get the cash back from the bank anyway.

Also I know that there are super-discounted stores in my country that do not accept cards for this reason.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#188

What I need is not lower fee cards, but anonymous pre-paid debit cards that do not allow linking purchases to a person and profiling people. Until that appears, I will use cash only.

Thats very hard to pull off due to draconian guidelines imposed by unelected shadow governments.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#189
post #167

Seems misleading or at the very least incomplete not to mention that basically only the US has these high credit card interchange fees of 2-3%. EU & UK cap it at 0.3% (0.2% for debit cards), and the rest of the world are closer to EU than US fees, if I understand correctly. The power of the free market.

If it were really a free market we would have more alternatives.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#190
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't - using cards, with fees, is cheaper than cash. I realized that when shops started to refuse cash (even if cash is legal tender and they, by law, _have_ to accept cash). The argument? Cash is too expensive.

> even if cash is legal tender and they, by law, _have_ to accept cash this is not true as it is not what "legal tender" means. Legal tender is something that the government must accept as payment, not private enterprise. > Businesses don’t have to accept cash.[0] > There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or service…

They don’t have to accept cash in advance. They do have to accept cash for debts, such as when you have already eaten the meal.
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