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Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

zenobiapay.com

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Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#101

Post by ceejayoz »

SJC_Hacker wrote: post #77
dragonwriter wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Legal tender has never been challenged in court to my knowledge It was challenged and upheld, both as against debts before the the legal tender acts were passed and those after, by the Supreme Court in Knox v. Lee (1871).

Yet the US government can refuse payments in cash https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/10/03/2017-21...

Yes. Because a patent filing fee is not a debt.

(And because government can exempt itself from virtually anything not forbidden by the Constitution. This is why cops can break down your door, but I can't.)

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#103

Post by ceejayoz »

SJC_Hacker wrote: post #61
ceejayoz wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A lot of shops, restaurants, and other establishments have stopped accepting cash, even if it's illegal to do so (legal tender etc). No. This is a misunderstanding of legal tender. https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm "There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are fr…

> egal tender only applies to debts. I used to think that was true, but try paying parking fines, etc. with pennies. Legal tender has never been challenged in court to my knowledge

Parking fines aren't debts, and thus, legal tender doesn't apply.

https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/seventh-circuit/city-sanc...

> The Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals ruled this week that city-levied fines are not debts under the FDCPA... District courts, for what it's worth, uniformly agree that a fine does not stem from a consensual transaction, and thus is not a debt under the FDCPA.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#104

Post by aledue »

Hunpeter wrote: post #98
vidarh wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Handling cash costs more on average at least for smaller businesses than typical card fees. It's typical to estimate the cost of handling cash anywhere from 4% to as high as 15% depending on takings and size of transactions.

As someone with little financial knowledge, I'm curious why that is the case and how those estimates are calculated. I've seen stores offering a discount on cash payments, citing card-related fees as the reason.

Here in Italy the answer would be that you cannot evade taxes if payments are tracked. I imagine that applies elsewhere too.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#105

Post by ceejayoz »

Hunpeter wrote: post #98
vidarh wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Handling cash costs more on average at least for smaller businesses than typical card fees. It's typical to estimate the cost of handling cash anywhere from 4% to as high as 15% depending on takings and size of transactions.

As someone with little financial knowledge, I'm curious why that is the case and how those estimates are calculated. I've seen stores offering a discount on cash payments, citing card-related fees as the reason.

Cash can be misplaced. Stolen. Needs to be stored securely. Banks often charge fees for depositing large amounts. Security companies charge fees to transport said amounts. Counterfeit bills. Etc.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#106

Post by godelski »

What the fuck is with the comments here? Guys, it is a postmortem. So you all are complaining about the scrolling and accusing it of being advertising or an announcement?

Frankly, I find this admirable and want to encourage these kinds of things. Guys gave it a shot, failed, and are putting their work out there. They are communicating why they think they failed and what they think would help someone pick up the mantel. What did you all want? Them to just die in quiet and all that code disappear? Hell, their READMEs have more documentation than most of the open source projects out there.

What happened to that hacker mentality? That belief in an open source world, even if as just a pipe dream. To me it looks like they still care about their dream but realized they can't make it happen. They aren't asking for investment and their website says they are inactive, so what makes this advertising? FFS do we have to assume everything is done in bad faith? You don't advertise by giving your competition a leg up. If this gets them investment, who cares, the result is the same. Code and information is out there, you can't take that back. Honestly, I don't care even if the code was garbage (I don't know if it is or isn't), I'll respect anyone that releases their code instead of letting it die with the business. It's just a better outcome, so why are you all complaining?

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#107

Post by ForHackernews »

bruce511 wrote: post #5

When you start at the wrong premise, you typically end up in the wrong place. The premise is that credit cards (visa / Mastercard) is broken. When actually it works really well. For starters it works everywhere. Online. IRL. In my home country, in foreign lands. Secondly it costs the consumer nothing. The cost goes to the merchant. If anything the customer gets rewards. Merchants might pay 3%, (and ultimately yes, th…

Counterpoint: Loads of merchants refuse to accept American Express because the fees are higher. Some merchants have gone to court for the right to offer lower "cash prices" – something Visa/Mastercard oppose because they want those fees hidden.

Clearly, at least some merchants are price-sensitive and would be interested in a lower-fee alternative to Visa/MC.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#108

Post by sampullman »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #10
sampullman wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's ultimately in the price of goods, then it doesn't cost the consumer nothing, no matter how you spin it. It's just cleverly hidden. I think it's close to impossible to "fix" Visa without government intervention (e.g. limit fees to a fraction of a percent), but I'm still grateful to anyone who tries.

> I think it's close to impossible to "fix" Visa without government intervention (e.g. limit fees to a fraction of a percent), but I'm still grateful to anyone who tries. This is what Australia is looking at currently: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-15/rba-credit-debit-merc...

I'm interested to see if that works out, and curious what it means for international cards with lots of perks. I imagine, for example, it wouldn't change anything right away for a Chase Sapphire card issued in the US, but if more countries followed suit there would eventually be a tipping point and card benefits would be reduced.

I guess the issuers all have complex models that take these things into account. In any case, I think it's a good move.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#109

Post by godelski »

poopsmithe wrote: post #20

I'm calling it-- 5 years and this will be vaporware. We live in a world where you have to 1) compete with VISA, Mastercard and 2) compete with Bitcoin Lightning Network.

Considering they are closing shop, I don't think you need to wait 5 years. Did you even read the article? They say it in the opening of the second paragraph...

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#110

Post by sampullman »

itake wrote: post #13
sampullman wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's ultimately in the price of goods, then it doesn't cost the consumer nothing, no matter how you spin it. It's just cleverly hidden. I think it's close to impossible to "fix" Visa without government intervention (e.g. limit fees to a fraction of a percent), but I'm still grateful to anyone who tries.

The price is the same if you use cash or card. Really, after reward points, card tends to be even cheaper. Visa/Mastercard/BNPL/Klarna etc. all have negotiated discounts for consumers, paid for by the merchant. I'm skeptical that merchants would lower prices (stepping away from $x.98, etc) instead of pocketing the higher margins themselves.

You're right that once prices have gone up, they rarely come back down. But if the price is the same, when you pay cash you're effectively subsidizing credit card reward programs, and lining Visa/Mastercard/issuer pockets.
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