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Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

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Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#71

Post by Tor3 »

Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #60
Tor3 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument doesn't hold - if cards were only about getting sales which they otherwise wouldn't get - and the part about "getting sales which they otherwise wouldn't get", is true enough - then there's no reason to refuse cash payments. That's additional sales, right? But the fact is that more and more shops refuse cash payments entirely. "Pay by card or go somewhere else".

I can't comment on this fact of more and more shops refusing for cash payments entirely as I personally have NEVER seen that? Provide me an article or some proof to this fact for me to comment further as currently we are at an disagreement on this thing which I hope we can turn into meaningful discussion.

Well.. just a quick search (as I won't be talking a walk and photograph all the "cards only" signs I now see in so many places):

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2025/mar/16/uk-high-street...

https://www.dnb.nl/en/general-news/news-2023/some-retail-sec...

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c20gevkx8gyo

https://www.aarp.org/money/personal-finance/no-cash-accepted...

https://educaloi.qc.ca/en/legal-news/do-you-have-the-right-t...

https://www.riksbank.se/en-gb/payments--cash/payments-in-swe...

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#72

Post by camillomiller »

Tor3 wrote: post #14
sampullman wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's ultimately in the price of goods, then it doesn't cost the consumer nothing, no matter how you spin it. It's just cleverly hidden. I think it's close to impossible to "fix" Visa without government intervention (e.g. limit fees to a fraction of a percent), but I'm still grateful to anyone who tries.

The incentive for merchants to accept cards for payment is that it'll increase number of sales. And it does. In principle this should even out over all sales.. but cards do make it easier for consumers do purchase stuff, and I'm absolutely sure that I personally spend money way easier with a card than without (not that I spend more than I make, mind). The total number of sales go up. I haven't used cash in my home co…

One thing to consider: cards solve the issue of employees stealing, which is surprisingly common from what I’ve heard especially in businesses with high workers turnover, such as seasonal bars and restaurants.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#74

Post by Tor3 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #52
Tor3 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

_Handling_ cash is expensive. I never thought of that until my SO started working in a shop. To and from the bank, with stacks of coins and notes.. and there's presumably much more than that for larger firms. In general I rely my statement on what merchants themselves are saying. Newspapers are writing interviews with merchants who (illegally) have stopped accepting cash, even though it's legal tender. "It's too expe…

> Newspapers are writing interviews with merchants who (illegally) have stopped accepting cash, even though it's legal tender. That's legal. https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm Legal tender applies only to debt/creditor relationships.

The USA is not all the world. The US rules don't apply in other countries. Rules differ. In many countries _businesses_ have to accept legal tender. Including in my own. That's why it's such a big deal when businesses actually still refuse cash.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#76

Post by toast0 »

albiinics wrote: post #16
bruce511 wrote: post #5

When you start at the wrong premise, you typically end up in the wrong place. The premise is that credit cards (visa / Mastercard) is broken. When actually it works really well. For starters it works everywhere. Online. IRL. In my home country, in foreign lands. Secondly it costs the consumer nothing. The cost goes to the merchant. If anything the customer gets rewards. Merchants might pay 3%, (and ultimately yes, th…

This is like says the tarrifs are paid by the other countries, not the US citizens. In reality, there is no competition in the payment systems. Free markets mean competition.

There might not be robust competition between payment systems, but when I go to a store, I've got options to pay:

Cash, credit (discover is dieing, but amex/mc/visa compete a bit), debit (several networks and all US cards have to be on at least two), I've seen PayPal as an option ocassionally, some merchants take Zelle, FedNow could if a good UX comes around (I don't think many merchants want to give out their routing and account numbers, and it's tedious to input them into my banking app anyway). Some vendors take checks and deposit them later, some take checks and process them immediately, etc.

People respond to incentives though. If merchants charge the same regardless of payment method, I'm going to use a rewards card that costs them more. When they add a line item credit charge, I'll consider cash or debit.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#77

Post by SJC_Hacker »

dragonwriter wrote: post #68
SJC_Hacker wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> egal tender only applies to debts. I used to think that was true, but try paying parking fines, etc. with pennies. Legal tender has never been challenged in court to my knowledge

> Legal tender has never been challenged in court to my knowledge It was challenged and upheld, both as against debts before the the legal tender acts were passed and those after, by the Supreme Court in Knox v. Lee (1871).

Yet the US government can refuse payments in cash

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2017/10/03/2017-21...

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#78

Post by lotsofpulp »

ameliaquining wrote: post #15
memco wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how prevalent this is now, but a few years back I was seeing a lot of "cash price" advertised for stuff that was lower by whatever the merchant didn't have to pay in fees so sometimes cash may not be subsidizing the credit industry.

In a lot of cases there are regulatory or contractual barriers to doing that.

In the US, not since 2011 since the Dodd Frank act required payment card networks to allow merchants to offer cash and debit card discounts.

https://www.ftc.gov/business-guidance/resources/new-rules-el...

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#79

Post by ceejayoz »

Tor3 wrote: post #74
ceejayoz wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Newspapers are writing interviews with merchants who (illegally) have stopped accepting cash, even though it's legal tender. That's legal. https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm Legal tender applies only to debt/creditor relationships.

The USA is not all the world. The US rules don't apply in other countries. Rules differ. In many countries _businesses_ have to accept legal tender. Including in my own. That's why it's such a big deal when businesses actually still refuse cash.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender

> Legal tender is a form of money that courts of law are required to recognize as satisfactory payment in court for any monetary debt.

A country may separately require businesses to accept legal tender, if they feel like it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender#Status_by_country would appear to indicate this distinction is very common in the developed world.

Re: Zenobia Pay – A mission to build an alternative to high-fee card networks

#80

Post by OutOfHere »

squigz wrote: post #54
OutOfHere wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not think most people are even slightly familiar with what transpired this year with regard to stablecoins. The biggest players that move money are going forward with it. This means Amazon, Walmart, and numerous other big players. They don't like paying credit card companies, and why should they. It's going to be a game changer.

I've never really understood this idea that banking should be free, as if it's ran on magical fairy dust and not computers that cost money, ran by people who need money themselves.

No here one except you said it will be free, but the amounts paid to Visa and MasterCard are altogether atrocious. Anything more than a few cents per electronic transaction is unreasonable.
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