Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England • Hacker News Board

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#111

Post by Xelbair » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:57 PM UTC

fennecfoxy wrote: post #55

Shank wrote: post #22

The UK is quickly deploying surveillance state technology that people once decried China for. Whether or not this is ethical or useful, I wish the hypocrisy would be acknowledged. The OSA, the Apple encryption demands, LFR, …, it’s clearly a trend. Has society really become this dangerous that we must deploy these things?

Suppose it depends on what it's used for. We could trust the government to be good, but governments are made from people, elected by people. And people are often shitbags to each other. For all the CCTV in London I've been mugged twice and nothing was captured on CCTV nor were the police all that interested in doing anything about it. As an outsider living here I think the UK has huge social problems that are neglect…

> We could trust the government to be good

no. you cannot. ever.

even if you have perfect faith in current government, you're one election away from something different.

CCTV is also extremely ineffective in crime prevention in general, and actually catching criminals - one of few studies(back when i did write my thesis on subject related to it) used different areas of UK to measure crime fighting capability and effect of CCTV - by finding similar areas with and without CCTV and comparing crime statistics.

they only worked on parking lots, there was no measurable differences in plazas, alleys, roads, highstreets etc.

and a bit of anecdotal evidence - once cameras at my older workplace caught robbery to a place next door. With criminal looking directly at the camera, before bashing the window with a brick, jumping in, and hopping out with accomplice. They never got caught. This was quite decent camera, with face clearly visible - i know this because we directly cooperated with police.

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#112

Post by account42 » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:57 PM UTC

grepnork wrote: post #103

johnisgood wrote: post #90

What is the point if there are people on many streets with CCTVs doing drugs openly. I saw a cop simply walk by someone overdosing. Nothing will happen. Again, what is the point exactly? Can anyone tell me? (Again, what is the point of the down-vote? I am asking for people's thought and opinions in the hope of a fruitful conversation).

Overdosing is not a crime, it's not even the job of the Police to help, and possession of drugs is being ignored by most forces because an arrest takes two officers off frontline services for 4 hours, when it will most likely result in a caution.

Why are you making excuses like this? Demand better from the people that would hold authority over you.

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#113

Post by varispeed » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:57 PM UTC

MaxPock wrote: post #93

Shank wrote: post #22

The UK is quickly deploying surveillance state technology that people once decried China for. Whether or not this is ethical or useful, I wish the hypocrisy would be acknowledged. The OSA, the Apple encryption demands, LFR, …, it’s clearly a trend. Has society really become this dangerous that we must deploy these things?

Whatever they accuse China of is always a projection.

At least China has manufacturing, jobs and thriving middle class.

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#114

Post by account42 » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:58 PM UTC

random9749832 wrote: post #34

[flagged]

[flagged]

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#115

Post by orra » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 4:07 PM UTC

elric wrote: post #35

Shank wrote: post #22

The UK is quickly deploying surveillance state technology that people once decried China for. Whether or not this is ethical or useful, I wish the hypocrisy would be acknowledged. The OSA, the Apple encryption demands, LFR, …, it’s clearly a trend. Has society really become this dangerous that we must deploy these things?

They've been doing this for years at protests, using "Forward Intelligence Teams". Even back in 2010 [1] there was an action group trying to protest this growing police-state (Fitwatch). The UK has had an insane number of CCTV cameras for as long as I can remember. Must be a truly dangerous place... https://web.archive.org/web/20100824175032/http://fitwatch.o...

> Must be a truly dangerous place...

I don't know if you're awaee, but the number of arrests for terrorism has skyrocketed in recent months, in the UK.

Sounds terrifying, until you realise people were arrested as terrorists for holding placards. (That fact is of course terrifying, but in a chilling way).

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#116

Post by potato3732842 » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 4:10 PM UTC

Xelbair wrote: post #111

fennecfoxy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose it depends on what it's used for. We could trust the government to be good, but governments are made from people, elected by people. And people are often shitbags to each other. For all the CCTV in London I've been mugged twice and nothing was captured on CCTV nor were the police all that interested in doing anything about it. As an outsider living here I think the UK has huge social problems that are neglect…

> We could trust the government to be good no. you cannot. ever. even if you have perfect faith in current government, you're one election away from something different. CCTV is also extremely ineffective in crime prevention in general, and actually catching criminals - one of few studies(back when i did write my thesis on subject related to it) used different areas of UK to measure crime fighting capability and effe…

Even if you have a "good" government that goodness will make it a target for those who seek to co-opt it as a means to their desired end, and their desired ends are never good because if they were they would pursue cheaper less circuitous paths to them.

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#117

Post by grepnork » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 4:15 PM UTC

raspyberr wrote: post #63

mytailorisrich wrote: post #51

In itself this is a storm in a teacup. The important question, only important question IMHO, is how they handle positives. Do they go all guns blazing and arrest the person on the spot? Or do they use a restrained approach and first nicely ask the person if they have any ID, etc? That's the important bit.

Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 means authorities can request encryption keys (passwords) from you and you can't say no. Investigatory Powers Act 2016 literally nicknamed Snoopers' Charter. Means ISPs keep all your traffic for minimum a year, police are given access to it, but politicians are exempt and need a warrant to have their data viewed?!?!? UK police have been rolling out Live Facial Recognition i…

Those 'niche' forums you mention are explicitly excluded from the Act.

Apple made the change to advanced security in advance of the bill being finalised, now the government has gone in another direction.

All the online safety act does is implement online the law as it stands IRL. British folk have been using the same ID verification systems to validate identity for nightclub admission, passport applications, driving licence applications, benefits claims, state pension claims, disclosure and barring checks, tax filings, mortgage deeds, security clearances, job applications, and court filings since 2016.

All the reaction is just pearl clutching - 5 million checks a day are being performed, the law itself is wildly popular with 70% support amongst adults after implementation.

There are three levels of checks - IAL1 (self-asserted, low confidence), IAL2 (remote or physical proof of identity), and IAL3 (rigorous proof with biometric and physical presence requirements).

IPA 2016 affords police access to your domain history, not content history, provided police can obtain a warrant from a senior High Court Judge. The box which stores the data is at ISP level and is easily circumvented with a VPN, or simply not using your ISP's DNS servers.

IPA 2016 doesn't exempt politicians from surveillance. It includes specific provisions for heightened safeguards when intercepting their communications. The Act establishes a "triple-lock" system for warrants targeting members of a relevant legislature, requiring approval from the Secretary of State, a Judicial Commissioner, and the Prime Minister. This heightened scrutiny is in recognition of the sensitivity involved in surveilling politicians, particularly given the surveillance of Northern Irish politicians and others in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, and 80s.

Part III of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (in force 1 October 2007), and Schedule 7 of the Terrorism Act 2000 provides powers over encryption keys/passwords etc. Section 49, RIPA can be used to force decryption, Section 51 to supply keys or passwords. These are identical to powers the police have IRL over safes, deposit boxes etcetera, and the penalty for non-compliance is identical.

You cannot use encryption or passwords to evade legal searches with a scope determined by a court on the basis of evidence of probable cause shown to the court by the entity requesting the search. A warrant from the High Court is required for each use.

Notable cases:-

- Blue chip hacking scandal - corrupt private investigators were illegally obtaining private information on behalf of blue chip companies.

- Phone hacking scandal - corrupt private investigators were illegally hacking voice mail on behalf of newspapers.

- Founder of an ISP using his position to illegally intercept communications and use them for blackmail.

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#118

Post by DrBazza » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 4:15 PM UTC

jon-wood wrote: post #44

elric wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've been doing this for years at protests, using "Forward Intelligence Teams". Even back in 2010 [1] there was an action group trying to protest this growing police-state (Fitwatch). The UK has had an insane number of CCTV cameras for as long as I can remember. Must be a truly dangerous place... https://web.archive.org/web/20100824175032/http://fitwatch.o...

The CCTV cameras I've never really had a problem with - despite what TV shows and films would like to tell you they're not actually a single coherent CCTV network, a vast proportion of them are operated by random shopkeepers, private home owners, and other such places. If they want footage from them the police are typically going to have to send someone out to ask for it, and then hope they haven't reused the storage…

There's no small irony that facial recognition isn't going to recognise the faces of those currently racing around on e-bikes stealing phones wearing their 'safety balaclavas'. Or, indeed, some of the more militant protesters that are turning up all over the place. It's a cliche, but if you have nothing to hide, and intend to protest peacefully, why are you covering your face?

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#119

Post by codedokode » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 4:22 PM UTC

runsWphotons wrote: post #59

fennecfoxy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suppose it depends on what it's used for. We could trust the government to be good, but governments are made from people, elected by people. And people are often shitbags to each other. For all the CCTV in London I've been mugged twice and nothing was captured on CCTV nor were the police all that interested in doing anything about it. As an outsider living here I think the UK has huge social problems that are neglect…

I commented about this on another thread, and probably most around here disagree with my general point there, but this fact amazes me. We have gotten all this tech creating a surveillance state but then it isn't even used to give better policing. You will just get mugged on camera by someone with ten prior charges and then be ignored by police.

The surveillance is there not to catch small thieves, but those who are against the government, against wars etc. A small thief doesn't threaten the regime in any way so he can be dealt with after more dangerous people are dealt with.

Re: Facial recognition vans to be rolled out across police forces in England

#120

Post by sidewndr46 » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 4:23 PM UTC

spwa4 wrote: post #27

sidewndr46 wrote: post #11

Doesn't the UK have cameras everywhere doing this anyways?

Nope. They started a long time ago with the cameras and didn't upgrade them, because money. Which means a pretty large part of the cameras have pathetic resolution and are black and white, as well as being too far away from much of their vision. Useful for locating protestors sorry ("getting a general idea of criminal activity"), not so useful for recognizing anyone.

That is interesting because it implies either the UK's camera infrastructure has simply amazing reliability with parts never failing. Or it could be that they have huge stocks of the hardware that they haven't yet exhausted.