Geneva makes public transport temporarily free to combat pollution spike • Hacker News Board

Re: Geneva makes public transport temporarily free to combat pollution spike

#51

Post by dkiebd » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:44 PM UTC

sofixa wrote: post #31

dfxm12 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments do a lot of wildly unpopular things. I can't speak specifically for Switzerland, but one recent example is UK's Online Safety Act 2023. Even related to drivers, speed cameras are enabled despite being unpopular.

Unfortunately, that's not how Switzerland operates, because it's a very direct democracy where the status quo and the will of the majority takes priority over common sense and long term thinking. Full franchise (women being allowed to vote) didn't happen in all cantons until the 1990s (after it being made possible in the 1970s), because the existing voters (men) just voted against it.

I completely reject the notion that direct democracy is bad because Politicians Know Better. It’s borderline if not completely authoritarian and frankly disgusting.

Maybe consider that Switzerland is one of the best if not the best country in the world because people can choose what they want it to be.

Re: Geneva makes public transport temporarily free to combat pollution spike

#52

Post by striking » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:46 PM UTC

lillecarl wrote: post #49

smsm42 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gas and cars are already heavily taxed. In California, for example, it's 61c per gallon now. I am not sure what's the situation in Switzerland, but last time I have been in Europe gas prices there was very significantly higher than in the US (even in California). Given as European gas doesn't seem to be a different product than US gas, I have to conclude Europeans already pay a lost of costs when buying gas. Same wit…

It is a different product, across the world. In Sweden you can't buy anything below 95 octane whereas I've seen 89 in Australia and 87 seems to be common in USA according to Claude. Editorialized: US "gas" is cheap crap

> An octane rating, or octane number, is a standard measure of a fuel's ability to withstand compression in an internal combustion engine without causing engine knocking. The higher the octane number, the more compression the fuel can withstand before detonating. Octane rating does not relate directly to the power output or the energy content of the fuel per unit mass or volume, but simply indicates the resistance to detonating under pressure without a spark.

from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

It just lets higher performance cars achieve higher compression ratios. I believe technically this means it has a little bit less raw combustion potential the higher the octane rating. But none of this actually matters in practice as long as you feed your car what it asks for.

Re: Geneva makes public transport temporarily free to combat pollution spike

#53

Post by dkiebd » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:46 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #14

This is excellent, but I always wonder at the way cities seem to bend over backwards for the worst technology for moving people ever invented, and don't dare do anything that deprioritizing the use of this technology. Here, I found some street parking for cars: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Quai+Turrettini/@46.205451... Alongside a gorgeous canal, with bike lanes there as well as what appears to be a train statio…

> I always wonder at the way cities seem to bend over backwards for the worst technology for moving people ever invented, and don't dare do anything that deprioritizing the use of this technology.

I don’t get it - is your comment pro or anti public transportation :)

Re: Geneva makes public transport temporarily free to combat pollution spike

#54

Post by MangoToupe » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:50 PM UTC

dukoid wrote: post #11

Why do we still allow drivers to externalize most of the costs associated with cars? There is existing technology to extract co2 from the atmosphere, and the current cost of this should be the free market-based price for co2 emissions.

I'm not sure I trust either consumers or market effects well enough to rationally move away from car usage.

Re: Geneva makes public transport temporarily free to combat pollution spike

#55

Post by ferguess_k » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:50 PM UTC

mvieira38 wrote: post #10

Public transportation should always be free in cities, with car commuters paying the operation costs. Not saying it can be implemented right away, but it should be a policy goal for cities. You have all the right in the world to prefer driving and chilling on your air conditioning and stereo if you can afford it, but it shouldn't be free if you're occupying the lane space 10 people would occupy in a bus, and making t…

I think the biggest issue is cost. Also this is completely out of sense if the city doesn't have enough public transit. It's going to be outrageous in my city at least, and it already has a reasonably well public transit in NA.

Re: Geneva makes public transport temporarily free to combat pollution spike

#56

Post by tokioyoyo » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:50 PM UTC

thmsths wrote: post #15

How effective do they expect a measure like this to be? Once a car and its insurance are paid for, the marginal cost of a single trip is quite low. I seriously wonder how many people woke up that day and thought "instead of driving I will take the train today because they are waiving the $3 fee" not many I bet. If we want to encourage people to take public transports we need to keep them competitive against the car a…

Cultural differences. Think of pandemic days, and how each country/city operated. Despite having almost no official lockdowns, Tokyo operated in self-induced lockdown style as people didn’t really want to exacerbate the problem. It was kind of the opposite in other places.

People in Switzerland might consider other things as the main goal (making the air cleaner), and this could be a simple nudge to change their behaviours. It’s not always monetary competitiveness that shapes behaviour.

Re: Geneva makes public transport temporarily free to combat pollution spike

#57

Post by bkettle » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:50 PM UTC

thmsths wrote: post #15

How effective do they expect a measure like this to be? Once a car and its insurance are paid for, the marginal cost of a single trip is quite low. I seriously wonder how many people woke up that day and thought "instead of driving I will take the train today because they are waiving the $3 fee" not many I bet. If we want to encourage people to take public transports we need to keep them competitive against the car a…

When I actually calculate the gas cost for a trip in a car, I am usually surprised at how large it can be. I wouldn’t be surprised if the $3 actually is less than the gas cost for many affected commutes.

However I think you are probably right that it won’t make much difference for a single week, since I think people tend to ignore this cost. Filling up the tank is infrequent enough and part of a routine that imo it doesn’t feel like a marginal cost and feels more like a fixed cost of car ownership

Re: Geneva makes public transport temporarily free to combat pollution spike

#58

Post by deepsun » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:51 PM UTC

aaronmdjones wrote: post #39

misja111 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the article, but that was about Ozone pollution. In most countries cars are already taxed, in Switzerland as well. The tax is proportional to the weight of the car, so it compensates for higher fuel consumption. For similar reasons, EV's are taxed less.

In the UK, VED is based on the vehicle's CO2 emissions per kilometre traveled under prescribed driving conditions. This means the registered keepers of EVs (and some hybrid ICE/EVs) pay nothing. There are talks about scrapping this system as more and more of the country transitions to EVs, and taxing them by vehicle weight instead (the same way driving licences are classed). This would reverse the current status quo,…

Just tax fuel/electricity instead of car.

Re: Geneva makes public transport temporarily free to combat pollution spike

#59

Post by stetrain » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:51 PM UTC

thmsths wrote: post #15

How effective do they expect a measure like this to be? Once a car and its insurance are paid for, the marginal cost of a single trip is quite low. I seriously wonder how many people woke up that day and thought "instead of driving I will take the train today because they are waiving the $3 fee" not many I bet. If we want to encourage people to take public transports we need to keep them competitive against the car a…

I think there is also a PR factor beyond the market economics of the $3 discount. Announcing the free transit alongside the pollution spike will get more people to read about it and consider whether they should make the choice to help with the pollution spike by taking transit.

There is also a bigger difference between free and $3 than between $3 and $6. Free means you don't have to buy a ticket, deal with the app or ticket machine, or have an existing public transit card. The "power of free" is worth considering here.

Re: Geneva makes public transport temporarily free to combat pollution spike

#60

Post by bevr1337 » Wed, Aug 13, 2025, 3:51 PM UTC

dukoid wrote: post #11

Why do we still allow drivers to externalize most of the costs associated with cars? There is existing technology to extract co2 from the atmosphere, and the current cost of this should be the free market-based price for co2 emissions.

> There is existing technology to extract co2

Source? As I understand it, co2 sequestration is still in R&D and not viable at scale. We can hit neutral, like a tree does, but that doesn't improve the situation. Like desalination, it sure seems like an easy problem but is not.