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Please Don't Promote Wayland

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Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#51

Post by wmf »

msgodel wrote: post #17
kstrauser wrote: post #5

I’m not a fan of Wayland or a detractor of X. I’m not personally invested in either of them. I couldn’t care less what’s pushing pixels at my screen as long as it works. That said, what you need to know about Wayland is that the X.org devs mostly migrated to it en masse because they said X had hit an evolutionary dead end and couldn’t be dragged into the present, by the design of it. These were the people who were al…

It looks to me like there are quite a few more basic features fundamentally incompatible with Wayland's architecture than X's. Maybe X has issues but Wayland is still a regression.

All that stuff has been fixed (but some of it was fixed pretty recently).

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#52

Post by wmf »

queenkjuul wrote: post #38
comex wrote: post #16

This reads as significantly AI-assisted and repetitive. And some of the points are really questionable, like claiming “Color management becomes inconsistent” when X11 doesn’t even support HDR, claiming that Linux containers and namespaces somehow mitigate X11’s security issues (that’s not how it works!), and talking about some outdated issues like NVIDIA support and SSH forwarding (both of which shouldn’t be an issue…

If SSH isn't an issue anymore, I've yet to find the solution

The solution is waypipe but it's still not as easy as ssh -W.

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#53

Post by wmf »

goku12 wrote: post #48

You could use most of those arguments verbatim and unironically create a page titled "Please don't promote X11". Meanwhile, some of the Wayland-specific complaints were solved a while ago and some weren't even Wayland's fault to begin with. I get it that some people don't want give up the old systems in favor of the shiny new technologies. I'm also on that side for some software like systemd (not debating. Systemd do…

Yeah, I agree with the author that we should simplify Linux... by dropping X11 completely. While we're at it we could also drop sysvinit, RPM/DEB/Snap, ifconfig, wget, etc.

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#54

Post by wmf »

throwabayhay wrote: post #18

They mention macOS as " one platform with consistent APIs and behavior". But macOS (or NeXTStep, as it started out as), an actual UNIX system (certified!), chose not to use X11 to achieve that, but to entirely roll their own.

The point is that Quartz Compositor is mandatory on macOS. There aren't different incompatible APIs.

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#55

Post by plorkyeran »

nixosbestos wrote: post #15

I literally don't have the words to look down my nose at this. Former X11 contributor, compositor contributor, active distro maintainer. I just can't. I laughed. I scoffed. I incredulously looked at how much time someone with some braincells put into this. I don't care, I'm saying it. Fuck your fragmentation whining. USERS WANT THEIR SHIT TO WORK. They expect high refresh monitors to work. They expect to be able to u…

All this time has been wasted by Wayland developers insisting that if Wayland makes something impossible by design, then users who want that thing are simply incorrect to want it and therefore it doesn't count. Wayland does not deliver on basic shit working, and as long as "that's incompatible with Wayland's security model" is considered an acceptable answer, it never will.

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#56

Post by hollerith »

plorkyeran wrote: post #55
nixosbestos wrote: post #15

I literally don't have the words to look down my nose at this. Former X11 contributor, compositor contributor, active distro maintainer. I just can't. I laughed. I scoffed. I incredulously looked at how much time someone with some braincells put into this. I don't care, I'm saying it. Fuck your fragmentation whining. USERS WANT THEIR SHIT TO WORK. They expect high refresh monitors to work. They expect to be able to u…

All this time has been wasted by Wayland developers insisting that if Wayland makes something impossible by design, then users who want that thing are simply incorrect to want it and therefore it doesn't count. Wayland does not deliver on basic shit working, and as long as "that's incompatible with Wayland's security model" is considered an acceptable answer, it never will.

Name one thing Wayland's architecture disallows that is allowed on Windows or MacOS.

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#57

Post by viraptor »

wmf wrote: post #51
msgodel wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks to me like there are quite a few more basic features fundamentally incompatible with Wayland's architecture than X's. Maybe X has issues but Wayland is still a regression.

All that stuff has been fixed (but some of it was fixed pretty recently).

Push-to-talk / global shortcuts still don't work. Not everything's fixed.

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#58

Post by rtpg »

queenkjuul wrote: post #42
rtpg wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a dog in this fight, I would be curious to know about the security stuff. Like is screen sharing a massive pain? Or is it "just" a prompt kind of like in the browser? Stuff like global hotkeys sounds unfun tho

The problem with screen sharing is if you're trying to share a headless remote machine with nobody at the console to approve the request. I don't think there's a proper solution there yet (which worries me, that's exactly how I run one of my machines at home)

Yeah seems like there should be _some_ mechanism in place, though I'll admit that it's not immediately obvious what that should be.

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#60

Post by mnmalst »

I help (or administrate) a couple of elderly relatives with their Linux desktops. The systems use Fedora Kinoite (an older version which still runs X), a immutable distribution which updates itself without any necessary user action (flatpack and rpm-ostree). This setup is simply perfect.

From time to time I log into those machines to check if everything is ok (updates ran through, backups were made and so on) or at times where the relative needs help with something. I use anydesk or rustdesk, both work pretty great with X but don't with wayland. rustdesk has an experimental wayland mode but it's unusable choppy and slow. Anydesk doesn't work with wayland at all.

As mentioned above I run an older version of Fedora Kinoite because newer versions run with wayland only.

What are my options in this case? I don't care if the system runs X or wayland, it just have to support this use case.

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