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Please Don't Promote Wayland

stoppromotingwayland.netlify.app

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Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#41

Post by [deleted] »

II2II wrote: post #31
kstrauser wrote: post #5

I’m not a fan of Wayland or a detractor of X. I’m not personally invested in either of them. I couldn’t care less what’s pushing pixels at my screen as long as it works. That said, what you need to know about Wayland is that the X.org devs mostly migrated to it en masse because they said X had hit an evolutionary dead end and couldn’t be dragged into the present, by the design of it. These were the people who were al…

> I couldn’t care less what’s pushing pixels at my screen as long as it works. I didn't know or care what was pushing the pixels on my Debian install, since it works. Being Debian, it could go either way: some of the desktop environments are committed to Wayland while other desktop configurations only work under X. (Incidentally, I checked. My setup uses Wayland.) > It’s not like someone invented Wayland and shoved t…

[deleted]

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#42

Post by queenkjuul »

rtpg wrote: post #29
lordofgibbons wrote: post #12

The primary argument is to avoid fragmentation sprinkled with some other not-well-thought-through points. Distros aren't rolling back to X11. That ship has sailed. You can either help move things along, or drag your feet and increase fragmentation - the thing being complained about.. Everything under the "security" section of this article is so unbelievably wrong, that I'm not sure if it's worth anybody's time to ref…

I don't have a dog in this fight, I would be curious to know about the security stuff. Like is screen sharing a massive pain? Or is it "just" a prompt kind of like in the browser? Stuff like global hotkeys sounds unfun tho

The problem with screen sharing is if you're trying to share a headless remote machine with nobody at the console to approve the request. I don't think there's a proper solution there yet (which worries me, that's exactly how I run one of my machines at home)

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#43

Post by kstrauser »

msgodel wrote: post #17
kstrauser wrote: post #5

I’m not a fan of Wayland or a detractor of X. I’m not personally invested in either of them. I couldn’t care less what’s pushing pixels at my screen as long as it works. That said, what you need to know about Wayland is that the X.org devs mostly migrated to it en masse because they said X had hit an evolutionary dead end and couldn’t be dragged into the present, by the design of it. These were the people who were al…

It looks to me like there are quite a few more basic features fundamentally incompatible with Wayland's architecture than X's. Maybe X has issues but Wayland is still a regression.

That seems at odds with what the people who wrote both of them believe.

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#44

Post by cratermoon »

nixosbestos wrote: post #15

I literally don't have the words to look down my nose at this. Former X11 contributor, compositor contributor, active distro maintainer. I just can't. I laughed. I scoffed. I incredulously looked at how much time someone with some braincells put into this. I don't care, I'm saying it. Fuck your fragmentation whining. USERS WANT THEIR SHIT TO WORK. They expect high refresh monitors to work. They expect to be able to u…

They expect screensavers to be able to lock the screen. https://web.archive.org/web/20250714073924/https://www.jwz.o...

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#45

Post by bmandale »

throw0101c wrote: post #37
eurleif wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X11 session support is being removed from the default install of Ubuntu with the upcoming 25.10 release. Gnome and KDE Plasma plan to remove X11 session support entirely within the next few years. Ready or not, Wayland is here.

> X11 session support is being removed from the default install of Ubuntu with the upcoming 25.10 release. Currently I can SSH from my MacBook/XQuartz onto an Ubuntu/Linux system and run xterm (or whatever). How does that work in the future?

apt install xorg

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#46

Post by queenkjuul »

ben0x539 wrote: post #20

Unfortunate that this page largely shills XLibre, the X fork by the guy who got ejected from contributing to Xorg when he landed a bunch of code that was blatantly untested, leading to tons of his commits getting reverted. Like, I am not a fan of Wayland, still using X on my machine, but from what I've seen of his posting, this guy isn't great PR for the "X is fine actually" camp.

Yeah once i saw XLibre I decided this was a joke, then it became apparent everything after the first section is AI i stopped reading entirely.

Wayback is the more promising project, if you can run an X11 display manager on Wayland you can still do XRDP and SSH, is my understanding. Those are the two features i really depend on

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#47

Post by nixosbestos »

cratermoon wrote: post #44
nixosbestos wrote: post #15

I literally don't have the words to look down my nose at this. Former X11 contributor, compositor contributor, active distro maintainer. I just can't. I laughed. I scoffed. I incredulously looked at how much time someone with some braincells put into this. I don't care, I'm saying it. Fuck your fragmentation whining. USERS WANT THEIR SHIT TO WORK. They expect high refresh monitors to work. They expect to be able to u…

They expect screensavers to be able to lock the screen. https://web.archive.org/web/20250714073924/https://www.jwz.o...

Yeah I'm so, just so upset XScreensaver can't lock a Wayland session. Jfc, good company there with a jwz link.

There's so much wrong with wanting or thinking an XScreensaver app would somehow work with a random Wayland compositor. But it does require ignorance of the exact security changes made to the model when moving from X11 to Wayland.

I can't. I can't. I should never waste my time in these threads.

Edit: i do also find it amusing how much of that manpage is dedicated to calling out how fragile and broken X11 is. You can't make this stuff up.

Edit2; I actually can't get over the irony of linking an app that notoriously has had a storied history because of X11's architecture. I can't name the number of time X11 sessions were not locked properly.

Whatever. Going to keep happily enjoying the basic features that every other desktop OS user expects that I get with KDE, gnome, cosmic, away, Niri, and more, in Wayland. Good luck unclutching y'all's pearls.

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#48

Post by goku12 »

You could use most of those arguments verbatim and unironically create a page titled "Please don't promote X11". Meanwhile, some of the Wayland-specific complaints were solved a while ago and some weren't even Wayland's fault to begin with.

I get it that some people don't want give up the old systems in favor of the shiny new technologies. I'm also on that side for some software like systemd (not debating. Systemd does offer many compelling benefits). But this article feels like complaining for the sake of it, rather than making reasonable detractions that could perhaps be addressed in Wayland. Attacking a software for just existing isn't a good strategy in FOSS. It is fundamentally about having choices.

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#49

Post by puffybuf »

stingraycharles wrote: post #14
rtpg wrote: post #4

I am very open to Wayland in theory but I legit worry because it's been in the air for years and years and it still feels so far away. And some of the Wayland-y points around things like security just never felt relevant to me. Though the real pain points for me have been around the various containerization things that just cause things like my IME to barely function. At least Python 3 if you started your project on…

It’s mostly application support that’s lagging, right? And of course window managers like i3 needing complete replacement, but those seem to be mostly down already.

i3 has pretty much been replaced by sway for me. Works great I have no problems with wayland as a regular user

Re: Please Don't Promote Wayland

#50

Post by josephcsible »

II2II wrote: post #31
kstrauser wrote: post #5

I’m not a fan of Wayland or a detractor of X. I’m not personally invested in either of them. I couldn’t care less what’s pushing pixels at my screen as long as it works. That said, what you need to know about Wayland is that the X.org devs mostly migrated to it en masse because they said X had hit an evolutionary dead end and couldn’t be dragged into the present, by the design of it. These were the people who were al…

> I couldn’t care less what’s pushing pixels at my screen as long as it works. I didn't know or care what was pushing the pixels on my Debian install, since it works. Being Debian, it could go either way: some of the desktop environments are committed to Wayland while other desktop configurations only work under X. (Incidentally, I checked. My setup uses Wayland.) > It’s not like someone invented Wayland and shoved t…

> Most modern software is built upon libraries that support either Wayland or X (assuming it has a GUI), so they should be blissfully ignorant of whether their application is running under Wayland or X. Most of the outliers are older programs that are built on top of libraries that haven't been updated for Wayland, but most of those programs will work under Wayland assuming that xwayland is installed.

That's true of software that just receives input from the keyboard and mouse and sends output to the screen, but for anything that does more advanced stuff than that, e.g., xrdp, there's often either no way at all to do so in Wayland, or doing so requires custom code for every DE instead of being able to write it once and having it work everywhere.

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