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Why are there so many rationalist cults?

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Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#81

Post by mcv »

noqc wrote: post #15

Perhaps I will get downvoted to death again for saying so, but the obvious answer is because the name "rationalist" is structurally indistinguishable from the name "scientology" or "the illuminati". You attract people who are desperate for an authority to appeal to, but for whatever reason are no longer affiliated with the church of their youth. Even a rationalist movement which held nothing as dogma would attract pe…

In fact, I'd go a step further and note the similarity with organized religion. People have a tendency to organize and dogmatize everything. The problem with religion is rarely the core ideas, but always the desire to use it as a basis for authority, to turn it dogmatic and ultimately form a power structure.

And I say this as a Christian. I often think that becoming a state religion was the worst thing that ever happened to Christianity, or any religion, because then it unavoidably becomes a tool for power and authority.

And doing the same with other ideas or ideologies is no different. Look at what happened to communism, capitalism, or almost any other secular idea you can think of: the moment it becomes established, accepted, and official, the corruption sets in.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#82

Post by dfabulich »

The whole game of Rationalism is that you should ignore gut intuitions and cultural norms that you can't justify with rational arguments.

Well, it turns out that intuition and long-lived cultural norms often have rational justifications, but individuals may not know what they are, and norms/intuitions provide useful antibodies against narcissist would-be cult leaders.

Can you find the "rational" justification not to isolate yourself from non-Rationalists, not to live with them in a polycule, and not to take a bunch of psychedelic drugs with them? If you can't solve that puzzle, you're in danger of letting the group take advantage of you.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#83

Post by reactordev »

WJW wrote: post #39
mlinhares wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, i'd understand something like Wraith (which I did see people developing issues, the shadow mechanic is such a terrible thing) but Mage is so, like, straightforward? Use your mind to control reality, reality fights back with paradox, its cool for a teenager but you read a bit more fantasy and you'll definitely find cooler stuff. But i guess for you to join a cult your mind must stay a teen mind forever.

I didn't originally write this, but can't find the original place I read it anymore. I think it makes a lot of sense to repost it here: All of the World Of Darkness and Chronicles Of Darkness games are basically about coming of age/puberty. Like X-Men but for Goth-Nerds instead of Geek-Nerds. In Vampire, your body is going through weird changes and you are starting to develop, physically and/or mentally, while realis…

I think I read it too, it’s called Twilight. /s

I had friends who were into Vampire growing up. I hadn’t heard of Werewolf until after the aforementioned book came out and people started going nuts for it. I mentioned to my wife at the time that there was this game called “Vampire” and told her about it and she just laughed, pointed to the book, and said “this is so much better”. :shrug:

Rewind back and there were the Star Wars kids. Fast forward and there are the Harry Potter kids/adults. Each generation has their own “thing”. During that time, it was Quake MSDOS and Vampire. Oh and we started Senior Assassinations. 90s super soakers were the real deal.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#84

Post by glenstein »

Ifkaluva wrote: post #36
cjs_ac wrote: post #19

Rationalism is the belief that reason is the primary path to knowledge, as opposed to, say, the observation that is championed by empiricism. It's a belief system that prioritises imposing its tenets on reality rather than asking reality what reality's tenets are. From the outset, it's inherently cult-like.

That is the definition of “rationalism” as proposed by philosophers like Descartes and Kant, but I don’t think that is an accurate representation of the type of “rationalism” this article describes. This article describes “rationalism” as described in LessWrong and the sequences by Eliezer Yudkowsky. A good amount of it based on empirical findings from psychology behavior science. It’s called “rationalism” because it…

Agreed, I appreciate that there's a conceptual distinction between the philosophical versions of rationalism and empiricism, but what's being talked about here is a conception that (again, at least notionally) is interested in and compatible with both.

I am pretty sure many of the LessWrong posts are about how to understand the meaning of different types of data and are very much about examining, developing, criticizing a rich variety of empirical attitudes.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#85

Post by JohnMakin »

One of a few issues I have with groups like these, is that they often confidently and aggressively spew a set of beliefs that on their face logically follow from one another, until you realize they are built on a set of axioms that are either entirely untested or outright nonsense. This is common everywhere, but I feel especially pronounced in communities like this. It also involves quite a bit of navel gazing that makes me feel a little sick participating in.

The smartest people I have ever known have been profoundly unsure of their beliefs and what they know. I immediately become suspicious of anyone who is very certain of something, especially if they derived it on their own.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#86

Post by Nihilartikel »

mlinhares wrote: post #4

> One is Black Lotus, a Burning Man camp led by alleged rapist Brent Dill, which developed a metaphysical system based on the tabletop roleplaying game Mage the Ascension. What the actual f. This is such an insane thing to read and understand what it means that i might need to go and sit in silence for the rest of the day. How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this?

I'm entertaining sending my kiddo to a Waldorf School, because it genuinely seems pretty good.

But looking into the underlying Western Esoteric Spirit Science, 'Anthroposophy' (because Theosophy wouldn't let him get weird enough) by Rudolph Steiner, has been quite a ride. The point being that.. humans have a pretty endless capacity to go ALL IN on REALLY WEIRD shit, as long as it promises to fix their lives if they do everything they're told. Naturally if their lives aren't fixed, then they did it wrong or have karmic debt to pay down, so YMMV.

In any case, I'm considering the latent woo-cult atmosphere as a test of the skeptical inoculation that I've tried to raise my child with.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#87

Post by reactordev »

mlinhares wrote: post #79
reactordev wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s always been like this, have you read the Bible? Or the Koran? It’s insane. Ours is just our flavor of crazy. Every generation has some. When you dig at it, there’s always a religion.

Mage is a game for teenagers, it doesn't try to be anything else other than a game where you roll dice do to stuff.

Mage yea, but the cult? Where do you roll for crazy? Is it a save against perception? Constitution? Or intelligence check?

I know the church of Scientology wants you to crit that roll of tithing.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#88

Post by animal_spirits »

> If someone is in a group that is heading towards dysfunctionality, try to maintain your relationship with them; don’t attack them or make them defend the group. Let them have normal conversations with you.

This is such an important skill we should all have. I learned this best from watching the documentary Behind the Curve, about flat earthers, and have applied it to my best friend diving into the Tartarian conspiracy theory.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#89

Post by [deleted] »

bubblyworld wrote: post #68

What is the base rate here? Hard to know the scope of the problem without knowing how many non-rationalists (is that even a coherent group of people?) end up forming weird cults, as a comparison. My impression is that crazy beliefs are common amongst everybody . A much simpler theory is that rationalists are mostly normal people, and normal people tend to form cults.

[deleted]
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