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Why are there so many rationalist cults?

asteriskmag.com

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Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#41
post #19

Rationalism is the belief that reason is the primary path to knowledge, as opposed to, say, the observation that is championed by empiricism. It's a belief system that prioritises imposing its tenets on reality rather than asking reality what reality's tenets are. From the outset, it's inherently cult-like.

But you cannot have reason without substantial proof of how things behave by observing them in the first place. Reason is simply a logical approach to yes and no questions where you factually know, from observation of past events, how things work. And therefore you can simulate an outcome by the exercise of reasoning applied onto a situation that you have not yet observed and come to a logical outcome, given the set of rules and presumptions.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#42

> One is Black Lotus, a Burning Man camp led by alleged rapist Brent Dill, which developed a metaphysical system based on the tabletop roleplaying game Mage the Ascension. What the actual f. This is such an insane thing to read and understand what it means that i might need to go and sit in silence for the rest of the day. How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this?

Humans are compelled to find agency and narrative in chaos. Evolution favored those who assumed the rustle was a predator, not the wind. In a post-Enlightenment world where traditional religion often fails (or is rejected), this drive doesn't vanish. We don't stop seeking meaning. We seek new frameworks. Our survival depended on group cohesion. Ostracism meant death. Cults exploit this primal terror. Burning Man's temporary city intensifies this: extreme environment, sensory overload, forced vulnerability. A camp like Black Lotus offers immediate, intense belonging. A tribe with shared secrets (the "Ascension" framework), rituals, and an "us vs. the sleepers" mentality. This isn't just social; it's neurochemical. Oxytocin (bonding) and cortisol (stress from the environment) flood the system, creating powerful, addictive bonds that override critical thought.

Human brains are lazy Bayesian engines. In uncertainty, we grasp for simple, all-explaining models (heuristics). Mage provides this: a complete ontology where magic equals psychology/quantum woo, reality is malleable, and the camp leaders are the enlightened "tradition." This offers relief from the exhausting ambiguity of real life. Dill didn't invent this; he plugged into the ancient human craving for a map that makes the world feel navigable and controllable. The "rationalist" veneer is pure camouflage. It feels like critical thinking but is actually pseudo-intellectual cargo culting. This isn't Burning Man's fault. It's the latest step of a 2,500-year-old playbook. The Gnostics and the Hermeticists provided ancient frameworks where secret knowledge ("gnosis") granted power over reality, accessible only through a guru. Mage directly borrows from this lineage (The Technocracy, The Traditions). Dill positioned himself as the modern "Ascended Master" dispensing this gnosis.

The 20th century cults Synanon, EST, Moonies, NXIVM all followed similar patterns, starting with isolation. Burning Man's temporary city is the perfect isolation chamber. It's physically remote, temporally bounded (a "liminal space"), fostering dependence on the camp. Initial overwhelming acceptance and belonging (the "Burning Man hug"), then slowly increasing demands (time, money, emotional disclosure, sexual access), framed as "spiritual growth" or "breaking through barriers" (directly lifted from Mage's "Paradigm Shifts" and "Quintessence"). Control language ("sleeper," "muggle," "Awakened"), redefining reality ("that rape wasn't really rape, it was a necessary 'Paradox' to break your illusions"), demanding confession of "sins" (past traumas, doubts), creating dependency on the leader for "truth."

Burning Man attracts people seeking transformation, often carrying unresolved pain. Cults prey on this vulnerability. Dill allegedly targeted individuals with trauma histories. Trauma creates cognitive dissonance and a desperate need for resolution. The cult's narrative (Mage's framework + Dill's interpretation) offers a simple explanation for their pain ("you're unAwakened," "you have Paradox blocking you") and a path out ("submit to me, undergo these rituals"). This isn't therapy; it's trauma bonding weaponized. The alleged rape wasn't an aberration; it was likely part of the control mechanism. It's a "shock" to induce dependency and reframe the victim's reality ("this pain is necessary enlightenment"). People are adrift in ontological insecurity (fear about the fundamental nature of reality and self). Mage offers a new grand narrative with clear heroes (Awakened), villains (sleepers, Technocracy), and a path (Ascension).

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#44

> One is Black Lotus, a Burning Man camp led by alleged rapist Brent Dill, which developed a metaphysical system based on the tabletop roleplaying game Mage the Ascension. What the actual f. This is such an insane thing to read and understand what it means that i might need to go and sit in silence for the rest of the day. How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this?

Came to ask a similar question, but also has it always been like this? The difference is now these people/groups on the fringe had no visibility before the internet? It's nuts.

Have you heard of Heavens Gate? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_g...].

There are at least a dozen I can think of, including the ‘drink the koolaid’ Jonestown massacre.

People be crazy, yo.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#45
post #26

> One way that thinking for yourself goes wrong is that you realize your society is wrong about something, don’t realize that you can’t outperform it, and wind up even wronger. many such cases

It is an unfortunate reality of our existence that sometimes Chesterton actually did build that fence for a good reason, a good reason that's still here.

(One of my favorite TED talks was about a failed experiment in introducing traditional Western agriculture to a people in Zambia. It turns out when you concentrate too much food in one place, the hippos come and eat it all and people can't actually out-fight hippos in large numbers. In hindsight, the people running the program should have asked how likely it was that folks in a region that had exposure to other people's agriculture for thousands of years, hadn't ever, you know... tried it. https://www.ted.com/talks/ernesto_sirolli_want_to_help_someo...)

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#46

> One is Black Lotus, a Burning Man camp led by alleged rapist Brent Dill, which developed a metaphysical system based on the tabletop roleplaying game Mage the Ascension. What the actual f. This is such an insane thing to read and understand what it means that i might need to go and sit in silence for the rest of the day. How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this?

Came to ask a similar question, but also has it always been like this? The difference is now these people/groups on the fringe had no visibility before the internet? It's nuts.

It’s always been like this, have you read the Bible? Or the Koran? It’s insane. Ours is just our flavor of crazy. Every generation has some. When you dig at it, there’s always a religion.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#47
It grew out of many different threads: different websites, communities, etc all around the same time. I noticed it contemporaneously in the philosophy world where Nick Bostrom’s Simulation argument was boosted more than it deserved (like everyone was just accepting it at the lay-level). Looking back I see it also developed from less wrong and other sites, but I was wondering what was going on with simulations taking over philosophy talk. Now I see how it all coalesced.

All of it has the appearance of sounding so smart, and a few sites were genuine. But it got taken over.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#48
The terminology here is worth noting. Is a Rationalist Cult a cult that practices Rationalism according to third parties, or is it a cult that says they are Rationalist?

Clearly all of these groups that believe in demons or realities dictated by tabletop games are not what third parties would call Rationalist. They might call themselves that.

There are some pretty simple tests that can out these groups as not rational. None of these people have ever seen a demon, so world models including demons have never predicted any of their sense data. I doubt these people would be willing to make any bets about when or if a demon will show up. Many of us would be glad to make a market concerning predictions made by tabletop games about physical phenomenon.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#49

I think I found the problem! The rationalist community was drawn together by AI researcher Eliezer Yudkowsky’s blog post series The Sequences, a set of essays about how to think more rationally I actually don't mind Yudkowski as an individual - I think he is almost always wrong and undeservedly arrogant, but mostly sincere. Yet treating him as an AI researcher and serious philosopher (as opposed to a sci-fi essayist…

Don't forget the biggest scifi guy turned cult leader of all L. Ron Hubbard

I don't think Yudkowski is at all like L. Ron Hubbard. Hubbard was insane and pure evil. Yudkowski seems like a decent and basically reasonable guy, he's just kind of a blowhard and he's wrong about the science.

L. Ron Hubbard is more like the Zizians.

Re: Why are there so many rationalist cults?

#50
post #37

Because humans like people who promise answers.

Boring as it is, this is the answer. It's just more religion. Church, cult, cult, church. So we'll get bored someplace else every Sunday. Does this really change our everyday lives?

Funnily enough, the actress who voiced this line is a Scientologist:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Cartwright#Personal_life

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