Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada • Hacker News Board

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#21

Post by comforteagle » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 9:35 PM UTC

gavingmiller wrote: post #13

throwaway1979 wrote: post #4

I'm canuck and am very cynical about the startup space in Canada. 1) Large number of the best developers leave. I doubled my salary moving from Toronto to the Bay area. 2) Silicon Valley (and NY) has smart money. Not to insult Canadian VCs, but the ones I've met are glorified bankers. 3) This is no longer true. The recent govt is increasingly unfriendly to immigrants. 4) In the bay area, everyone I knew (and their do…

re 5: SR&ED (the program I assume you're referencing) is 'free' money. If my company can make back 3/4 of a developers salary by doing "proposal writing" why wouldn't they do that?

Increasingly you get led down an endless paper trail of showing documentation, code reviews & ccra is now in the business of sicking auditors on claims to aggressively deny them. Wasted time & headaches.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#22

Post by comforteagle » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 9:36 PM UTC

crazycanuck wrote: post #17

bryanlarsen wrote: post #2

I may be a little bit cynical about the first 4 reasons, but the last one is very real. SR&ED tax credits mean that the Canadian government will fund 20-35% of your R&D as long as you do the paperwork (aka logbooks) and can stick it out long enough to have profits to apply the expenses against. These benefits are lucrative enough that failed R&D firms are sometimes purchased almost solely for their outstanding R&D ta…

Actually, you don't even need profits to apply the credits against. They are refundable, which means that if you didn't owe taxes to offset against, the government actually writes you a check in the amount of the credit.

Increasingly you get led down an endless paper trail of showing documentation, code reviews & ccra is now in the business of sicking auditors on claims to aggressively deny them. Wasted time & headaches.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#23

Post by nickler » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 9:37 PM UTC

There is some real validity to the points, especially with regards to the investor culture, but mostly because there are just far fewer of them. The good ones are out there, just not in the numbers.

Staying out of the fishbowl is definitely helpful, and we've found some great traction in a market that has far less competition. I can imagine anyone in our target in SF will have 100 people knocking on their door to get them involved in a beta.

Canada is a great little greenhouse, and a warm pond to test, iterate, and evolve. If you can prove your product/market fit here, then you can look at the big ocean to expand without a huge risk on the cost of scaling.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#24

Post by deskamess » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 9:37 PM UTC

tlear wrote: post #7

throwaway1979 wrote: post #4

I'm canuck and am very cynical about the startup space in Canada. 1) Large number of the best developers leave. I doubled my salary moving from Toronto to the Bay area. 2) Silicon Valley (and NY) has smart money. Not to insult Canadian VCs, but the ones I've met are glorified bankers. 3) This is no longer true. The recent govt is increasingly unfriendly to immigrants. 4) In the bay area, everyone I knew (and their do…

1. Any numbers? Toronto you can get some pretty decent money. Also living in downtown with no car as opposed to driving everywhere in Bay area and paying crazy rent. It is not that clear cut imo. NYC is a better comparison probably 2. Not sure on this not enough experience 3. It is trivial to get a visa for Canada to work, compared to US there is no comparison. Note that for Canadian citizens it is different in US (m…

#3... it is not trivial to get a work permit in Canada these days. Your employer has to involve themselves in an official recruitment process and show that none of the candidates qualified. This requirement is an almost US green card like requirement. By comparison the H-1B (us work permit) is much easier to get. Getting a work permit is relatively easy if you are in oil related (non office) work, but not if in technology.

Perhaps there may be some loopholes for new companies (aka startups), but I am not sure.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#25

Post by nodemaker » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 9:42 PM UTC

mynegation wrote: post #19

nodemaker wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 3) This is no longer true. The recent govt is increasingly unfriendly to immigrants. Can someone please elaborate on this one ?

I presume GP talks about tightening rules on immigration. Federal Skilled Worker program that was the main source of skilled immigrants to Canada several years ago was a point system where factors like your age, education, work experience, marital status, number of official languages you speak, and secured job offer were contributing to the overall score and your occupation did not matter. Some time ago, this program…

Thanks.

After some Google-Fu I found the "proposed changes" you were talking about

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/releases/2012/...

and yes, software engineering is not on the list

http://www.canadavisa.com/new-instructions-federal-skilled-w...

The best option seems to be PhD! One can apply for permanent residency two years into their PhD programs.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#26

Post by andreipop » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 10:00 PM UTC

throwaway1979 wrote: post #4

I'm canuck and am very cynical about the startup space in Canada. 1) Large number of the best developers leave. I doubled my salary moving from Toronto to the Bay area. 2) Silicon Valley (and NY) has smart money. Not to insult Canadian VCs, but the ones I've met are glorified bankers. 3) This is no longer true. The recent govt is increasingly unfriendly to immigrants. 4) In the bay area, everyone I knew (and their do…

I'm actually in a similar position and thinking about moving to the valley. I've actually done a lot of research on the visa stuff as well, not sure about the college degree stuff and how it would affect things, but mobility for Canadians to the US seems to be ok? http://designcodelearn.com/2012/08/22/to-sf-from-canada/

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#27

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 10:06 PM UTC

jb55 wrote: post #20

neilk wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. There's basically only a couple of reasons to start your startup in Canada. * Portable, cheap healthcare. A lot of people in the US don't join a startup due to the health insurance issue. The healthcare you get from a startup is not even close to what a big company can offer you. * You're like me (no CS degree) and the US government doesn't think you look like an engineer. This can be worked around, but for m…

You're second point is pretty much the reason why I ended up joining a startup in Canada. I got job offers from Facebook and Google for twice the pay, but I couldn't get a tn visa. According to the Canadian government I am not qualified to work there since I dropped out of College. But yeah if it weren't for that there wouldn't have been much incentive to stick around.

[deleted]

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#28

Post by msbarnett » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 10:22 PM UTC

jb55 wrote: post #20

neilk wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. There's basically only a couple of reasons to start your startup in Canada. * Portable, cheap healthcare. A lot of people in the US don't join a startup due to the health insurance issue. The healthcare you get from a startup is not even close to what a big company can offer you. * You're like me (no CS degree) and the US government doesn't think you look like an engineer. This can be worked around, but for m…

You're second point is pretty much the reason why I ended up joining a startup in Canada. I got job offers from Facebook and Google for twice the pay, but I couldn't get a tn visa. According to the Canadian government I am not qualified to work there since I dropped out of College. But yeah if it weren't for that there wouldn't have been much incentive to stick around.

> According to the Canadian government I am not qualified to work there since I dropped out of College.

The US Government, you mean.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#29

Post by parasubvert » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 10:23 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #14

neilk wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your expenses are probably much higher though. Generally people adjust by downgrading their standard of living. It's not unusual to be making $100K+ in SF and have a roommate. I can't imagine what it's like in NYC.

Conceptually true, in reality not so much. The additional expense of living in SF/NYC does not at all cancel out the additional pay. I've done this calculation many times - no matter which way you slice it, you earn substantially more in real terms in the US. Just doing some quick napkin math now - to maintain my existing NYC lifestyle in Toronto (and my current savings rate) I'd need to be in the $100-110K range. Wh…

It's not that uncommon to pull $100k+ if you're solid with co-op background. 5 years out of undergrad I was in the $145k base range (more with bonus).

The real trick in Canada (especially smaller markets like Calgary) is to be an independent contractor... talented guys pull in $95-110 per hour (minus 10-15% if you need a broker), $150-175 per hour or more if you're in a specialty with big demand. HR departments here lag the USA and can't accept what techs are worth.

Re: Reasons to Start a Startup In Canada

#30

Post by greenranger » Thu, Sep 06, 2012, 10:36 PM UTC

I cant speak for other parts of Canada but the startup/hacker culture in Toronto is definitely getting better. I find most companies are bootstrapped small businesses compared to the typical VC backed longshots you read about here - Nobody's giving you ten million dollars to build a photo sharing app around these parts.