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The Framework Desktop is a beast

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Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#141

Post by jychang »

cdavid wrote: post #127
Kirth wrote: post #113

I was baffled by the comparison to the M4 Max. Does this mean that recent AMD chips will be performing at the same level, and what does that mean for on-device LLMs? .. or am I misunderstanding this whole ordeal?

I was surprised at previous comparison on omarchy website, because apple m* work really well for data science work that don't require GPU. It may be explained by integer vs float performance, though I am too lazy to investigate. A weak data point, using a matrix product of N=6000 matrix by itself on numpy: - SER 8 8745, linux: 280 ms -> 1.53 Tflops (single prec) - my m2 macbook air: it is ~180ms ms -> ~2.4 Tflops (si…

You're most likely bottlenecked by memory bandwidth for a LLM.

The AMD AI MAX 395+ gives you 256GB/sec. The M4 gives you 120GB/s, and the M4 Pro gives you 273GB/s. The M4 Max: 410GB/s (14‑core CPU/32‑core GPU) or 546GB/s (16‑core CPU/40‑core GPU).

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#142

Post by jychang »

ilaksh wrote: post #111

How does that Framework Desktop compare with the "GMKtec AI Mini Ryzen Al Max+ 395 128GB" mini PC? I suspect this one is very similar hardware and a slightly better deal if you give up the cool factor of Framework. Although I don't really know. Anyone compared them head-to-head?

They're the same price. Both 395 machines (with 128GB of RAM) are $1999.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#143

Post by rs186 »

heraldgeezer wrote: post #133

Not really. A laptop CPU defeats the purpose. Get a 9800X3D for gaming will be waaaay faster or Threadripper for productivity or the 9950X3D chips with 16 cores/32 threads. Why this laptop crap when you can get a nice PC case. Then again he thinks the Fractal North was "bulky"? What?

You completely missed the point.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44853961

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#144

Post by zozbot234 »

komali2 wrote: post #109
jamesgill wrote: post #67

I like Framework and own one of their laptops. But the desktop seems more a triumph of gimmicky marketing than a desktop that's meaningfully different. And, it seems significantly overpriced.

I'm realizing that I may have misunderstood Framework's market. I thought it was tinkerers and environmentally conscious FOSS nerds like me, but I think there maybe be a huge enterprise segment whose employees in charging of purchasing are like me but answer to much more strict business needs than "Isn't it cool that it comes with a screwdriver in the box?" So for example the underpowered cpu in the fw12 makes no sen…

> So for example the underpowered cpu in the fw12 makes no sense to me until I found out that it's also designed for mass purchases by schools and designed to be flung around by angsty teens.

I think that might be overstating it a bit. Real "rugged" laptops do exist, and would be quite at home in that kind of use (well, usually you'd worry a lot more about how kids in primary school will treat your hardware than teenagers) but the Framework 12 is not one.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#145

Post by rs186 »

Jtsummers wrote: post #93
sethops1 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The RAM is soldered on all Halo Strix platforms because physics is getting in the way. With pluggable DIMMs the memory bandwidth would be halved, at best.

That's fine, but not what I was commenting on so your comment is mostly irrelevant. I was commenting on a brand based on repairability selling a product that's deliberately not repairable. It's a curious choice to throw away the branding that brought them to where they are, and hopefully not the start of a trend for their other devices.

The only non repairable part is RAM due to technical constraints. The rest is as repairable as any other desktop, if not more so (e.g. power supply). Why are you accusing them of "throwing away the branding" and holding such a purist view, when they are doing their best and just making compromises in order to release a decent product.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#146

Post by G3rn0ti »

Jtsummers wrote: post #2

> In some ways, the Framework Desktop is a curious machine. Desktop PCs are already very user-repairable! So why is Framework even bringing their talents to this domain? In the laptop realm, they're basically alone with that concept, but in the desktop space, it's rather crowded already. Yet it somehow still makes sense. And even more curious, Framework Desktop is deliberately less repairable than their laptops. They…

> They threw away their user-repairable mantra when they made the Desktop

You forget the value proposition of Framework products is not only they allow you to bring your own hardware but they also promise to provide you with replacement parts and upgrades directly from the vendor.

In this case they could not make the RAM replaceable (it’s a limitation of the platform) but you can expect an upgrade board in about 2 years that’s actually going to be easy to install for much less cost than buying a new desktop computer.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#147

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

ggm wrote: post #104
LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Das Balkenspiel ist schlechter Stil. (The bar game is bad style/lame)

Pong!

Errm, No :-) I meant bars as in benchmarks, often rather meaningless, because within the range of statistic noise.

For instance, something having 100.200 points in one config, in another 100.220, with the bars/scales distorted to make that difference seem much larger.

Gaming the bar-game, so to speak.

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#148

Post by rs186 »

nemomarx wrote: post #24
trenchpilgrim wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 128GB version wouldn't be throwaway, since that's the maximum the platform as a whole supports anyway- more memory than that would require a new mainboard and CPU at the same time.

Not for upgrade reasons but what if you have a fault in one of the dimms or etc? Now you can't just drop in a replacement without changing everything.

I wonder why so few people ask Apple products of such questions -- "what if my SSD goes bad, does it mean my computer is now completely useless?"

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#149

Post by nh43215rgb »

ashleyn wrote: post #9

How is AMD GPU compatibility with leading generative AI workflows? I'm under the impression everything is CUDA.

In practical generative AI workflows (LLMs), I think AMD Max+395 chips with unified memory is as good as Mac Studio or MacBook Pro configurations in handling big models locally and support fast inference speeds (However Top-end Apple silicon (M4 Max, Studio Ultra) can reach 546GB/s memory bandwidth, while the AMD unified memory system is around 256GB/s). I think for inference use either will work fine. For everything else I think CUDA ecosystem is a better bet (correct me if I'm wrong).

Re: The Framework Desktop is a beast

#150

Post by zozbot234 »

wolfgangK wrote: post #34
kristianp wrote: post #15

> There's at least a little flexibility with the graphics card if you move the board into a different case—there's a single PCIe x4 slot on the board that you could put an external GPU into, though many PCIe x16 graphics cards will be bandwidth starved. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/08/review-framework-des...

For LLM inference, I don't think the PCIe bandwidth matters much and a GPU could improve greatly the prompt processing speed.

The Strix Halo iGPU is quite special, like the Apple iGPU it has such good memory bandwidth to system RAM that it manages to improve both prompt processing and token generation compared to pure CPU inference. You really can't say that about the average iGPU or low-end dGPU: usually their memory bandwidth is way too anemic, hence the CPU wins when it comes to emitting tokens.
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