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How AI is upending the software development industry

reuters.com

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Re: How AI is upending the software development industry

#51

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #42
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #21

It’s amusing to me to see the top SV companies falling back to the status symbols of yesteryear for juniors: prestige of your alma mater. Feels like an admission that they have no real way to vet candidates otherwise.

A different take, and I'm not sure if this is controversial or not. The "prestige of your alma mater" is not just some empty signal. Of course it's not cut and dry, but yes, you tend to find much higher quality software developers graduating from the top of their class with a CS degree from MIT or Stanford than you do graduating from Codesmith. I'm honestly a little baffled this is even a semi-controversial take to b…

I don't think you two are disagreeing. That was the parents point, no? It's hard to pick candidates otherwise. Which is sad, because there are some good candidates without degrees from top tier schools (myself included, but I was lucky to get in after 8 years of trying).

Boot camp on its own though.. I don't disagree with you there. I was never convinced this stuff could be properly learned in such a short period of time. Perhaps just well enough to pass an interview. Combine that with some self learning and freelance work, then quite sure.

Re: How AI is upending the software development industry

#52

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

mikert89 wrote: post #48
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A different take, and I'm not sure if this is controversial or not. The "prestige of your alma mater" is not just some empty signal. Of course it's not cut and dry, but yes, you tend to find much higher quality software developers graduating from the top of their class with a CS degree from MIT or Stanford than you do graduating from Codesmith. I'm honestly a little baffled this is even a semi-controversial take to b…

The problem with this is it creates a caste system that gets locked in based on how you did on math tests when you were 14. There is certainly predictive power, but people get into these schools for all sorts of reasons. Also, there are unforeseen consequences. Take venture capital, its actually relatively easy for a harvard grad to raise money, the reason being: - everyone is trying to get an early piece of a compan…

> it creates a caste system that gets locked in based on how you did on math tests when you were 14.

I agree, but then again, if you look at areas like sports and the arts, the vast majority of people who are stars were also standouts when they were 14 (or often younger). It doesn't do any good to pretend that someone who was coding since elementary school wouldn't have a huge (and warranted) advantage over someone who didn't pick it up until their 20s.

I also agree people get into top colleges for lots of different reasons, but (at least in my experience), graduating from a top school just got your foot in the door, but you still had to go through the same judgement gauntlet as everyone else after that.

Re: How AI is upending the software development industry

#53

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

8n4vidtmkvmk wrote: post #51
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A different take, and I'm not sure if this is controversial or not. The "prestige of your alma mater" is not just some empty signal. Of course it's not cut and dry, but yes, you tend to find much higher quality software developers graduating from the top of their class with a CS degree from MIT or Stanford than you do graduating from Codesmith. I'm honestly a little baffled this is even a semi-controversial take to b…

I don't think you two are disagreeing. That was the parents point, no? It's hard to pick candidates otherwise . Which is sad, because there are some good candidates without degrees from top tier schools (myself included, but I was lucky to get in after 8 years of trying). Boot camp on its own though.. I don't disagree with you there. I was never convinced this stuff could be properly learned in such a short period of…

> Feels like an admission that they have no real way to vet candidates otherwise.

That's the statement I disagree with. Software companies (good ones anyway) have plenty of tools to vet candidates. It's just that they'd rather go fishing where the pool is full than where it's mostly minnows.

Re: How AI is upending the software development industry

#54

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

jiggawatts wrote: post #37
grunder_advice wrote: post #3

If nobody hires juniors, then where are the seniors supposed to come from?

Junior developers are the equivalent of the draftsmen that used to work under architects. Just like how CAD has almost entirely eliminated that line of work, the same thing will happen in software development. Only the “architects” will remain. There is an implicit assumption made by the people concerned about junior devs disappearing that that’s where senior developers come from . The reality is that almost junior d…

I think this can be a bit unfair too. I learned to use database engines because I did a lot of solo work. Also learned a teeny tiny bit in school. But I never touch a DB directly anymore even though I'm a "backend" SWE. How is one to gain such experience in a huge company that pigeon holes folks into such specific roles?

I mean I guess they can choose to jump teams or jobs every couple years to gain some breadth, but it seems cruel to force people to hop around to move up the ladder. (Even though I admit this is still the fastest way, but for different reasons!)

Re: How AI is upending the software development industry

#56

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

baxtr wrote: post #9

> Coding bootcamps have been a mainstay in Silicon Valley for more than a decade. Now, as AI eliminates the kind of entry-level roles for which they trained people, they’re disappearing. OK, so I think there is a fair chance it will play out like this: the younger generation won't study CS anymore / learn how to code. Instead, they'll all vibe code. This will lead to a massive increase in demand for seniors to clean…

I'm hoping I can escape being laid off for long enough for them to come around again and realize they need me to clean up the slop. And then I can capitalize on it.

More likely, they'll lay everyone off and with some luck start hiring them back at same or lower salaries and tell us we're lucky to even have a job, and we'll have no choice but to accept...

Re: How AI is upending the software development industry

#57

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

mberning wrote: post #25

The only thing it’s upending is sane engineering practices in my experience. I just reviewed a python flask app which was basically “vibe coded” by a couple people speed running a checklist of features. I open up the auth.py file to find it is integrated with an idp using oauth. Whether the caller has the correct scopes is never checked. I grab client credentials for a completely unrelated app. Hit /admin using my be…

I logged into my CTOs account with an empty string once. This was before vibe coding.

Re: How AI is upending the software development industry

#58

Post by rossant »

8n4vidtmkvmk wrote: post #57
mberning wrote: post #25

The only thing it’s upending is sane engineering practices in my experience. I just reviewed a python flask app which was basically “vibe coded” by a couple people speed running a checklist of features. I open up the auth.py file to find it is integrated with an idp using oauth. Whether the caller has the correct scopes is never checked. I grab client credentials for a completely unrelated app. Hit /admin using my be…

I logged into my CTOs account with an empty string once. This was before vibe coding.

Vibe coding may make an existing problem even worse.

Re: How AI is upending the software development industry

#59

Post by atmavatar »

mikert89 wrote: post #48
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A different take, and I'm not sure if this is controversial or not. The "prestige of your alma mater" is not just some empty signal. Of course it's not cut and dry, but yes, you tend to find much higher quality software developers graduating from the top of their class with a CS degree from MIT or Stanford than you do graduating from Codesmith. I'm honestly a little baffled this is even a semi-controversial take to b…

The problem with this is it creates a caste system that gets locked in based on how you did on math tests when you were 14. There is certainly predictive power, but people get into these schools for all sorts of reasons. Also, there are unforeseen consequences. Take venture capital, its actually relatively easy for a harvard grad to raise money, the reason being: - everyone is trying to get an early piece of a compan…

It has at least as much to do with how wealthy your family is as it does with how well you do on standardized testing.

I was accepted to MIT, but my family wasn't poor enough to receive need-based aid, and we certainly weren't wealthy enough for me to go without aid (especially because it would have been out-of-state tuition), so I ultimately went elsewhere. I expect a fair number of others here have similar stories.

A big part of the reason ivy-league and other elite schools are selected for is that they are a strong signal for family wealth.

Re: How AI is upending the software development industry

#60

Post by mikert89 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #52
mikert89 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this is it creates a caste system that gets locked in based on how you did on math tests when you were 14. There is certainly predictive power, but people get into these schools for all sorts of reasons. Also, there are unforeseen consequences. Take venture capital, its actually relatively easy for a harvard grad to raise money, the reason being: - everyone is trying to get an early piece of a compan…

> it creates a caste system that gets locked in based on how you did on math tests when you were 14. I agree, but then again, if you look at areas like sports and the arts, the vast majority of people who are stars were also standouts when they were 14 (or often younger). It doesn't do any good to pretend that someone who was coding since elementary school wouldn't have a huge (and warranted ) advantage over someone…

This isnt the correct comparison, since most people getting into the top schools are completely undifferentiated, all have maxed out GPAs and near perfect/perfect SATs. There are for more people with the profile to get into harvard, than there are admits. The breakdown is a composition of:

1. legacy admits

2. athletic admits

3. dei admits

4. actual brilliances admits

but even in the 4th bucket, they are allocating those spots based on alot of non performative criteria.

with sports, its more like, "who ran 40 meters the fastest"

I live in NYC, I meet the ivy types all the time. I have gotten very cynical about it

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