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Software Rot

permacomputing.net

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Re: Software Rot

#201

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

kragen wrote: post #179
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it starts with us collectively not using boring tech as a term anymore. If boring helps me be productive, that's exciting, not boring. Some people on the React team deciding in 2027 to change how everyone uses React again is NOT exciting, it's an exercise in tolerating senior amateurs and I hate it because it affects all of us down to the experience of speaking to under-qualified people in interview processes…

Hey, didn't you write kjbuckets and Gadfly? Or was that Aaron Watters? I was thinking about that the other day: that was one of the coolest pieces of software for Python 2 (though I think it predated Python 2): an embedded SQL database without needing SQLite's C API. I suppose it's succumbed to "software rot" now. I think "boring software" is a useful term. Exciting things are unpredictable. Predictable things aren't…

I thought you were about to say go on a ski trip with your mistress while your wife is 9 months pregnant. That'd be exciting too, but in a bad/awful way.

Re: Software Rot

#202

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

azemetre wrote: post #144
asa400 wrote: post #136

SQLite has an explicitly stated policy on this: "The intent of the developers is to support SQLite through the year 2050." https://www.sqlite.org/lts.html People talk about SQLite's reliability but they should also mention its stability and longevity. It's first-class in both. This is what serious engineering looks like.

Does SQLite talk about how they plan to exist beyond 2050 across multiple lifetimes? Not trying to be chide but it seems like with such a young industry we need better social tools to make sure this effort is preserved for future devs. Churn has been endemic in our industry and it has probably held us back a good 20 years.

The easiest way would be to just write a spec for the data format, which I think they already have?

If any tooling fails in 25 years, you can at least write a new program to get your data back out. Then you can import it into the next hot thing.

Re: Software Rot

#203

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

pca006132 wrote: post #176
roda73 wrote: post #123

This is one of the reasons I absolutely hate Linux based development and operating systems built with it. We all know it now as dependency hell, but what it is in fact is just a lazy shortcut for the current development that will bite you down the path. The corporate software is not a problem, because the corporate users don't care as long as it works now, in the future they will still rely on paid solutions that wil…

C/C++ dependency management is easy on windows? Seriously? What software did you build from source there?

Once it's compiled, it keeps running. I can still run win32 programs and what not. Is that true of Linux programs? Can I run one compilation on any distro for years to come? I honestly don't know.

Re: Software Rot

#204

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

skydhash wrote: post #133
roda73 wrote: post #123

This is one of the reasons I absolutely hate Linux based development and operating systems built with it. We all know it now as dependency hell, but what it is in fact is just a lazy shortcut for the current development that will bite you down the path. The corporate software is not a problem, because the corporate users don't care as long as it works now, in the future they will still rely on paid solutions that wil…

It’s all volunteer work, not some corporation with trillions laying around. If you want something easy, use Debian (or ubuntu). They pretty much have everything under the sun. What you want to have (download software from the net and run it) is what most distro have been trying to avoid. Instead, they vet your code, build it, and add it to a reputable repo. Because no one wants to download postgres from some random s…

Ubuntu is not perpetually stable. I mean.. I have some old instances running since 2018 or so and they continue to work fine, but I've been blocked from running/updating certain apps. So my choices now are upgrade the OS and risk breaking everything (almost certain) or... Just keep using the old stuff.

Re: Software Rot

#205

Post by Ygg2 »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #151
Ygg2 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda the point of the threadmill metaphor. If you are standing on a threadmill, you will fall right off. It requires great effort to just stay at one spot.

But adding features isn't staying at the same spot.

Honestly. I think it is. All software exists in a kind of attract consumer/developer evolutionary race.

If I assume your point is true, wouldn't everyone then just switch to Paint for all 2D picture editing? I mean it's the fastest - opens instantly on my machine vs 3-4sec for Krita/Gimp/Photoshop. But it's also bare bones. So why isn't Paint universal used by everyone?

My assumption: what people want is to not waste their time. If a program is 3 seconds slower to start/edit, but saves you 45 minutes of fucking around in a less featureful editor, it's obvious which one is more expedient in the long run.

Re: Software Rot

#206

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

skydhash wrote: post #142
gjsman-1000 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I checked, Ubuntu/Canonical is a multimillion dollar company, Red Hat is a multibillion dollar company, SuSE sold for $2.5B, and The Linux Foundation has over $250M in revenue to spend only 3% on development of Linux specifically. Enough of the BS of "we're just volunteers" - it's fundamentally broken and the powers that be don't care. If multiple multibillion dollar entities who already contribute don't se…

Those companies sell server OS support, not consumer desktop. And Linux is rock solid for that purpose. Desktop Linux is OK. And I think it’s all volunteer work.

OK at best. Barely functional. Incredibly unstable.

Re: Software Rot

#207

Post by Ygg2 »

myaccountonhn wrote: post #129
Ygg2 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When and why has "stable" become synonymous with "unmaintained"? Because the software ecosystem is not static. People want your software to have more features, be more secure, and be more performant. So you and every one of your competitors are on an update treadmill. If you ARE standing (aka being stable) on the treadmill, you'll fall off. If you are on the treadmill you are accumulating code, features, and bug fi…

> People want your software to have more features, be more secure, and be more performant I think it's worth noting that one reason hardware rots is because software seems to become slower and slower while still doing the same thing it did 15 years ago.

> still doing the same thing

The core issue, in my humble opinion, is that it's not doing the same thing. But from a thousand miles away it looks like that, because everyone uses 20% of functionality, but everyone in aggregate uses 100% of functionality.

> I think it's worth noting that one reason hardware rots is because software seems to become slower and slower while still doing the same thing it did 15 years ago.

I'd like to see some actual proof of (/thoughts on) this. Like if you didn't patch any security issues/bugs, or add any features, or fixed any dependencies, how is the code getting slower?

Like I understand some people care about performance, but I've seen many non-performant solutions (from Unity, to Photoshop to Rider, being prefered over custom C# engine, Paint, Notepad++) being used nearly universally, which leads me to believe there is more than one value in play.

Re: Software Rot

#208

Post by 1vuio0pswjnm7 »

"HTTP vs HTTPS

It is possible to consult this wiki on port 80, that is to say using http:// instead of https://."

https://permacomputing.net/about/

"If you do not have access to git on your operating system, you can download a zip file that contains both the markdown source files and the generated HTML files, with the paths fixed. The zip file is generated once a week."

https://permacomputing.net/cloning/

http://permacomputing.net/permacomputing.net.zip

Would it be appropriate to include a digital signature, as is commonly found on mirrors

Thought experiment: If it was standard practice to offer a compressed archive then would websites still be hammered by unwanted crawlers

If answer is yes, then what if remove/deny access to online pages and only allow access to the compressed archive

Re: Software Rot

#209

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

BobaFloutist wrote: post #151
Ygg2 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kinda the point of the threadmill metaphor. If you are standing on a threadmill, you will fall right off. It requires great effort to just stay at one spot.

But adding features isn't staying at the same spot.

Could be, if you're attracting some users who wanted the new stuff and pushing out other customers who just wanted fast and stable.

Re: Software Rot

#210

Post by 8n4vidtmkvmk »

phkahler wrote: post #130

I'm looking at GTK here. Don't get me wrong, I like GTK and think it should be the preferred choice of GUI toolkit for many reasons. However, I have the same complaints a lot of people do about constant change and API compatibility issues. In some cases things need to change, but why going form 3 to 4 have menus been removed and require using other constructs? Could you at least provide a wrapper? Don't use event str…

I never understood those kinds of changes. If you really, really, really want to rename something, deprecate the old thing and make it an alias for the new thing. Don't delete it. Just add compatibility shims. Then after 5 or 10 years, take a pulse of the community. If they've mostly migrated off, go ahead and delete. If it's still actively used... Keep it, or even undeprecate it because clearly it's wanted.
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