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Apple At Its Worst: It's Time to Stop Censoring Apps

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Re: Apple At Its Worst: It's Time to Stop Censoring Apps

#31

Post by bookwormAT »

gwright wrote: post #25
josteink wrote: post #7

Apple censoring apps in its own proprietary app-store isn't really a big deal to society as a whole. Apple censoring what other devices are allowed to exist outside their production-lines and what competing products customers are allowed to choose is.

I know that this is a hopeless request but can we stop using the word "censor" when we are really talking about curation, or editorial policy, or private business decisions, etc? Government imposed restrictions on speech and/or commerce is something entirely different from plain old business decisions and it would be nice if we didn't conflate the two things by overloading the meaning of "censorship".

IMHO, restrictions on speech and/or commerce do not need to be imposed by a government in order to count as censorship. Any controlling body will do.

If you control software distribution on a plaform, you directly or indirectly control every information that customers of that platform receive. I think this covers censorship.

Of course iOS does not have a dominant position in the market yet, so censorship is limited by the customers choice to switch to another device. But as I explained above, the moment to speak against the control is now, as long as there are still alternatives left.

I think this "plain old business decision" is a political issue of great importance.

Re: Apple At Its Worst: It's Time to Stop Censoring Apps

#32

Post by jeremyjh »

gavinlynch wrote: post #9
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #2

People that keep writing articles like this should not buy Apple. Apple is going to do what they're going to do. Either accept it or buy Android. Those are your options. But let's be serious, Apple risks "consumer trust"? Not in any way that is likely to be measurable.

>> "Still, it's a new kind of gatekeeper, and it holds the keys to a platform used by millions of people around the world. While not as horrifyingly Orwellian as it could be, the fact that the biggest company in U.S. history makes decisions about which content is too "objectionable" for its customers is unsettling." I am forever bewildered by consumers that have this sense of entitlement around a company and "demand"…

So the OP cannot express an opinion about what Apple should do, without "having a sense of entitlement"? Can you describe what an "un-entitled" criticism would look like, or how it would differ from the OP? Or should we just not ever criticize Apple because they are a private company and we can buy Android devices?

Re: Apple At Its Worst: It's Time to Stop Censoring Apps

#33

Post by bookwormAT »

cjensen wrote: post #30
drcube wrote: post #28

"Apple at its worst" is the chicanery of not letting you own the device they sold you. App store censorship wouldn't be a problem if there were other ways to get the programs you want and/or need.

For $99/year, you can put any open source program on it you like. That's all it costs to be a developer.

But you can not distribute that program.

Re: Apple At Its Worst: It's Time to Stop Censoring Apps

#34

Post by mikeash »

cjensen wrote: post #30
drcube wrote: post #28

"Apple at its worst" is the chicanery of not letting you own the device they sold you. App store censorship wouldn't be a problem if there were other ways to get the programs you want and/or need.

For $99/year, you can put any open source program on it you like. That's all it costs to be a developer.

Not any open source program, only open source programs that play well within the confines of the official app sandbox. The $99/year doesn't give you any way to escape that sandbox, meaning there are a ton of things you can't do. Also note that any apps installed with the $99/year certificate will expire when the certificate expires, which I believe is currently after a year, so you have to continually renew.

The only way to really get full control of your device is to jailbreak, but Apple is fighting jailbreakers hard. And of course this isn't hypothetical at all: Cydia is full of apps that not only can't go into the app store, but couldn't be usefully installed on a non-jailbroken device using a developer certificate.

Re: Apple At Its Worst: It's Time to Stop Censoring Apps

#35

Post by mikeash »

crgt wrote: post #16

I wonder what would happen if Apple allowed consumers to pay for the ability to sideload apps. It seems like this might address the concerns of the vocal minority of techies that truly care about this sort of thing, while still maintaining the sanctity of the walled garden for the masses. If you know what you're doing, signing up for the $99 dev program already effectively allows you to load whatever apps you want on…

"If you know what you're doing, signing up for the $99 dev program already effectively allows you to load whatever apps you want on your device."

Not even close, sadly. You still can't install any apps that do any system-level stuff, regardless of what you pay. Apple still exerts a good bit of control over what you can do even with your own device, your own code, and your own dev program membership.

Re: Apple At Its Worst: It's Time to Stop Censoring Apps

#36

Post by k-mcgrady »

bookwormAT wrote: post #33
cjensen wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For $99/year, you can put any open source program on it you like. That's all it costs to be a developer.

But you can not distribute that program.

You can distribute the source code and allow others who have paid $99 load it on to their device. Or distribute it via Ad hoc (limited to 100 per year), or purchase an Enterprise account which might give you more distribution options outside of the store.

Re: Apple At Its Worst: It's Time to Stop Censoring Apps

#37

Post by rjd »

drcube wrote: post #29
rjd wrote: post #17

Totally disagree, its a major part of why I brought an iPhone over anything else (as a consumer). Anything hooked to me financially I want locked down, and with the near field stuff creeping in day by day I'd prefer things to be getting tighter and tighter, not looser and looser.

You bought an iPhone because you don't want the ability to be notified of drone strikes?

That is exactly what I mean ;) Pretty getting a notification that a drone is near is not going to save your life. For one thing any drone coming to kill you is unlikely to be spotted until its to late. And places where it could be useful I doubt there is useful cell coverage anyway.

So I'd wager that app is nothing more than a titalating tool to fill peoples morbid curiosities. And at which point this is a conversation about culture, taste, censorship.

At that point I expect Apples well documented self protection guidelines to kick in and distance themselves from the app... leaving it up to people use other options not associated with apple to view that content i.e. creating a pseudo app by book marking to the home screen.

Re: Apple At Its Worst: It's Time to Stop Censoring Apps

#38

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

magicalist wrote: post #22

The standard "they're a private company/Android is an alternative" reply to this argument remains shortsighted. I'm an actor in the economy as well, and and I can apply non-monetary pressure (like editorials) just as well as Apple can (like advertising) to try to get a product that I want and a policy that I want in the same place. "Accepting it" leads to non-optimal solutions. We can disagree on what is optimal, of…

True.

Censorship counts even for "bad" things. The US has free speech, unless it is child porn, for instance.

Re: Apple At Its Worst: It's Time to Stop Censoring Apps

#39

Post by pulplobster »

gavinlynch wrote: post #9
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #2

People that keep writing articles like this should not buy Apple. Apple is going to do what they're going to do. Either accept it or buy Android. Those are your options. But let's be serious, Apple risks "consumer trust"? Not in any way that is likely to be measurable.

>> "Still, it's a new kind of gatekeeper, and it holds the keys to a platform used by millions of people around the world. While not as horrifyingly Orwellian as it could be, the fact that the biggest company in U.S. history makes decisions about which content is too "objectionable" for its customers is unsettling." I am forever bewildered by consumers that have this sense of entitlement around a company and "demand"…

Tell me why we shouldn't demand devices that we can change, do whatever we please with? Why shouldn't we demand that computing devices has an override, or some way of running whatever software the owner wants it to? What would happen to Apple if we had these kinds of regulations? Would the iphone never have happened? I doubt it.

Businesses don't have any rights on their own, only the rights we give to them. When the interests of companies goes against the interests of the people, then we regulate. It's that simple. I'm against regulations that impose overhead for companies without good reason. Regulation to PREVENT companies from expending energy to actively keep users from doing what they want is not overhead. Forcing companies to keep their system somewhat open won't hurt them as much as it would benefit the world.

Re: Apple At Its Worst: It's Time to Stop Censoring Apps

#40

Post by gwright »

bookwormAT wrote: post #31
gwright wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that this is a hopeless request but can we stop using the word "censor" when we are really talking about curation, or editorial policy, or private business decisions, etc? Government imposed restrictions on speech and/or commerce is something entirely different from plain old business decisions and it would be nice if we didn't conflate the two things by overloading the meaning of "censorship".

IMHO, restrictions on speech and/or commerce do not need to be imposed by a government in order to count as censorship. Any controlling body will do. If you control software distribution on a plaform, you directly or indirectly control every information that customers of that platform receive. I think this covers censorship. Of course iOS does not have a dominant position in the market yet, so censorship is limited b…

Ok so now 'business' is the same as 'politics'?

The problem with tossing all these things into the same etymological barrel is that you lose the ability to communicate effectively about their differences.

Government restrictions imposed by force are not the same thing as market realities created by private decisions.

Business decisions are not the same thing as public policy crafted via the political process.

It is true that business decisions can have public policy implications and vice versa. That doesn't make them the same thing though.

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