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Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

open-web-advocacy.org

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Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#151

Post by q3k »

nuker wrote: post #147
close04 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair enough, and then your iOS should just report the list of permissions the app demanded, maybe even compare to the AppStore version, and then let people make their choice. It doesn't have to be a "one click" easy way to make mistakes. Most users won't bother to go through 3 extra steps to install the "alternative" app if they aren't missing anything in the regular one. The OS should anyway sandbox everything, and…

> and then let people make their choice. Some apps are de-facto unavoidable, like Facebook, Whatsapp and X.

I have, in fact, none of these on my phone.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#152

Post by pornel »

radiofreeeuropa wrote: post #131
meibo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari is not a good browser, by design, because it's in Apple's interest to cripple the Web as a platform. If they want their browser to be actually competitive instead of forcing people to use it, they should make a good browser. That is markets working as they are supposed to.

Counterpoint: Safari is by far the best mainstream browser, because it's got the only engine that gives half a shit about battery life, and because they push back on shitty features Google wants to make "standard" so they can trash my UX and the computing ecosystem even more.

There's a grain of truth to it — Apple has learned from Microsoft's history that making the whole browser shitty is too obvious and annoys users. Apple was smart enough to keep user-visible parts of the browser in a good shape, while also dragging their feet on all the Web platform features that could endanger the App Store cash cow.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#153

Post by KerrAvon »

Shank wrote: post #79
ezfe wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android phones don't support it globally so saying that Apple is "forced" to compete where Android doesn't proves the point that they're doing more than needed.

Just because you can provision Felica cards outside of Japan doesn't mean that you can actually use them. It's not really global support if you can add Suica in the US and then not use it. More likely is that Felica Networks agreed with this logic and Apple is only paying the license fee for JP devices, or has some side deal about not delineating between regions. If Apple didn't support Felica, it would just move mor…

On recent US SKU iPhones — don’t know how recent —- you can add a Suica card directly to Apple Wallet annd use it anywhere the physical card is accepted. No weird regional deals.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#154

Post by Barbing »

lxgr wrote: post #141
thewebguyd wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One of the most outlandish one being that freedom to use your phone however you want would necessarily compromise security and privacy for everyone. I suppose in a round-a-bout way, it could, more specifically around iMessage, which is Apple's baby in the US and a big part of their lock in effect for US users. Right now, you can reasonably assume that using iMessage with another iPhone user that both ends are reaso…

> Right now, you can reasonably assume that using iMessage with another iPhone user that both ends are reasonably secure and private. I'd disagree, given that many people have iCloud Backup enabled, which (at least without "Advanced Data Protection") uses encryption keys available to Apple and includes all iMessage and SMS messages.

>reasonably secure

“These memes will be leaked to the feds if my friend causes Apple to be subpoenaed” is much more palatable than “every text I send my girlfriend is being used to train an LLM by iPhoneFolderCleanerLLCAssociates”

I know iCloud backups are not perfectly secure. I like the privacy aspect of iMessage as it stands, even if it’s not quite Cone of Silence. _Definitely_ we could have more freedom on iOS! Just without worrying about adware scrapers somehow… without worrying about grandma increasing my tech support burden when a scammer calls her… (shrug)

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#156

Post by cosmic_cheese »

close04 wrote: post #142
nuker wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then Facebook will grant its app all permission entitlements, and will direct all users to opt-out lockdown for the app to work.

Fair enough, and then your iOS should just report the list of permissions the app demanded, maybe even compare to the AppStore version, and then let people make their choice. It doesn't have to be a "one click" easy way to make mistakes. Most users won't bother to go through 3 extra steps to install the "alternative" app if they aren't missing anything in the regular one. The OS should anyway sandbox everything, and…

I think the real issue is that without enforcement measures, apps by bad actors like Facebook have free rein to find holes in the sandbox and similar. Even in the event that iOS allows choice of App Store globally, it might not be the worst thing to let them keep a kill switch on automatic distribution of individual apps (which once flipped off, users would need to sideload the app in question) so when some third party dev tries to pull that kind of stunt there will be consequences.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#158

Post by kelthuzad »

radiofreeeuropa wrote: post #131
meibo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safari is not a good browser, by design, because it's in Apple's interest to cripple the Web as a platform. If they want their browser to be actually competitive instead of forcing people to use it, they should make a good browser. That is markets working as they are supposed to.

Counterpoint: Safari is by far the best mainstream browser, because it's got the only engine that gives half a shit about battery life, and because they push back on shitty features Google wants to make "standard" so they can trash my UX and the computing ecosystem even more.

Counterpoint: Your whole narrative is just Apple PR talk in disguise.

If Safari were even remotely close to being "the best mainstream browser" as you claimed, it would manifest itself in Safari capturing a dominant market share i.e. people would naturally gravitate towards Safari without Apple forcing it upon users. Apple would also invest much more into Web technology, but they don't have any interest in doing that since it would threaten their App Store business model.

"Pushing back on features" translates directly to "preventing web apps from becoming a viable threat" and none of this is about UX, which is just one of the convenient pretexts to make Apple's devious and self-serving behavior more palatable. No matter how often Apple shills try to rephrase and euphemize it, anyone who has recognized Apple's conflict of interest in this regard will see through it.

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#159

Post by youngtaff »

pton_xd wrote: post #126
perfectviking wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your argument that Safari is not a good browser? Using market forces to encourage more consolidation into a single engine is *bad*.

> What is your argument that Safari is not a good browser? https://ios404.com/ Safari is missing many performance and device-related features that would allow you to create a compelling web application and bypass the App store. I tried once, you run into the most unexpected roadblocks and come to the conclusion "I have to release this as an App." Well... guess why.

Several of the 'missing' features listed on that site are contentious e.g. WebUSB

Re: Japan: Apple Must Lift Browser Engine Ban by December

#160

Post by ocdtrekkie »

NotPractical wrote: post #127
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is the only thing keeping web standards in place. Many vendors we work with only support Chrome, including Chrome... on iOS. Which means because on iOS that's just Safari, the website has to meet web standards. So we know thanks to Apple, it'll work on Firefox! Soon as this happens, Chrome is the web. The OWA knows this, it's their goal, it's an astroturf outfit.

Can you please elaborate on what your point is here? Previously you've made comments in support of opening up the Apple ecosystem, but now it seems that you're no longer in support of the idea after a sudden realization that opening up the platform to everyone means that it's also opened up to Google?

Very specifically: Safari is a critical lynchpin for Google's control of the web and we need to be extremely careful how we address it. A more open Apple ecosystem would be wonderful, I'm strongly in favor of sideloading and third party app stores. Both companies need to be heavily regulated, but the "Open Web Advocacy" idiots are just trying to push a Chrome monoculture, and it's important we do not accidentally make one monopoly worse while addressing another.

Ideally, Google will be broken up and forced to divest Chrome (this is in progress, but at the speed of the US federal government, so could be a decade if it succeeds), and then we can require Apple to remove their browser ban. Doing this out of order will destroy the web as we know it.

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