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AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

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Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#31

Post by blitzar »

crazygringo wrote: post #26
dabedee wrote: post #9

AWS claims their cloud is "sovereign" and "independent" while remaining owned by a US corp subject to US law (including the CLOUD Act). That's not how sovereignty works. EU citizen operators don't change the fact that the underlying technology, patents, and corporate control remain American. Zero details on pricing, available services, or how they'll handle conflicts between US law and their "sovereignty" promises. F…

> That's not how sovereignty works. Actually, it is. It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. And being staffed by Europeans means they are immune to any US legal threats. I.e. the US can't compel a European employee to reveal data under a subpoena the way it could compel American citizens. Amazon remains the owner and controls the techno…

> It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe.

Already was - I pay Amazon Web Services EMEA SARL ("AWS Europe") an entity established in Luxembourg.

> That means it's 100% subject to European law.

Always have been. What is it with tech companies thinking the law doesn't apply to them because muah internet?

> US can't compel a European employee

Courts compel companies not employees, companies get fined and CEOs go to jail for failure to comply.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#32

Post by crazygringo »

dabedee wrote: post #29
crazygringo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not how sovereignty works. Actually, it is. It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. And being staffed by Europeans means they are immune to any US legal threats. I.e. the US can't compel a European employee to reveal data under a subpoena the way it could compel American citizens. Amazon remains the owner and controls the techno…

Being "100% subject to European law" doesn't override the parent company's obligations under US law. At best, it creates a legal conflict where AWS must violate either US or EU law. Which one will the US parent company prioritize if/when faced with enforcement actions? The only way this would work is if the European operation were truly independent & separately owned, no corporate control from the US. But I don't thi…

> At best, it creates a legal conflict where AWS must violate either US or EU law.

No, that's the whole point of this setup. Amazon will not be violating US law when its European subsidiary says no, we won't respond to your subpoena. It would be if Amazon USA owned the European data centers directly and employed American workers. But it will do neither. The US courts can't compel companies to do things they have no legal authority over. It doesn't matter that Amazon owns the subsidiary -- fundamentally, the subsidiary is a foreign entity.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#33

Post by skissane »

dabedee wrote: post #29
crazygringo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not how sovereignty works. Actually, it is. It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. And being staffed by Europeans means they are immune to any US legal threats. I.e. the US can't compel a European employee to reveal data under a subpoena the way it could compel American citizens. Amazon remains the owner and controls the techno…

Being "100% subject to European law" doesn't override the parent company's obligations under US law. At best, it creates a legal conflict where AWS must violate either US or EU law. Which one will the US parent company prioritize if/when faced with enforcement actions? The only way this would work is if the European operation were truly independent & separately owned, no corporate control from the US. But I don't thi…

> Being "100% subject to European law" doesn't override the parent company's obligations under US law. At best, it creates a legal conflict where AWS must violate either US or EU law. Which one will the US parent company prioritize if/when faced with enforcement actions?

IANAL/etc, but the subsidiary and the parent are different people (legal personhood). The US parent is only responsible for the EU subsidiary’s actions under US law to the extent it has effective control of them. If the parent tells the subsidiary to obey a US legal order, and the management of the subsidiary refuses on the grounds of EU law - then the management of the parent has done what US law requires them to do. The US management might consider firing the EU management and replacing them with new managers - but if the job requirement is “must be willing to break local law”, nobody with an appropriate background is going to apply, so if they fire them they won’t be able to replace them, hence they are legally justified in not firing them.

It is normally true that a wholly-owned subsidiary just does whatever the parent’s executive management demands, but this is one of the rare cases where that generalisation breaks down. (If we consider non-wholly-owned subsidiaries, it becomes a much more common thing.)

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#34

Post by pyrale »

crazygringo wrote: post #26
dabedee wrote: post #9

AWS claims their cloud is "sovereign" and "independent" while remaining owned by a US corp subject to US law (including the CLOUD Act). That's not how sovereignty works. EU citizen operators don't change the fact that the underlying technology, patents, and corporate control remain American. Zero details on pricing, available services, or how they'll handle conflicts between US law and their "sovereignty" promises. F…

> That's not how sovereignty works. Actually, it is. It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. And being staffed by Europeans means they are immune to any US legal threats. I.e. the US can't compel a European employee to reveal data under a subpoena the way it could compel American citizens. Amazon remains the owner and controls the techno…

> It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law.

As a subsidiary company, does Amazon retain operational control over that branch?

If so, it's subject to the CLOUD act, and therefore, not compatible with EU rules.

> Amazon remains the owner and controls the technology, yes.

So, basically, the answer is that the EU subsidiary is not independent. Consider Lavabit's story, the US admin would have no issue asking Amazon to trojanize their tech.

> their reputation will be forever ruined

That happened 20 years ago.

> It's not in Amazon's corporate self-interest to allow a back door like that.

They wouldn't have a say in the matter.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#35

Post by petcat »

dabedee wrote: post #29
crazygringo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not how sovereignty works. Actually, it is. It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. And being staffed by Europeans means they are immune to any US legal threats. I.e. the US can't compel a European employee to reveal data under a subpoena the way it could compel American citizens. Amazon remains the owner and controls the techno…

Being "100% subject to European law" doesn't override the parent company's obligations under US law. At best, it creates a legal conflict where AWS must violate either US or EU law. Which one will the US parent company prioritize if/when faced with enforcement actions? The only way this would work is if the European operation were truly independent & separately owned, no corporate control from the US. But I don't thi…

The EU is being squeezed by USA and China on all sides whilst staring down the barrel of a Russian invasion on their eastern borders. They're in a really bad place and don't have a lot of options. It's why they were so quick to succumb to Trump's lopsided trade agreement.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#38

Post by adrr »

dabedee wrote: post #29
crazygringo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not how sovereignty works. Actually, it is. It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. And being staffed by Europeans means they are immune to any US legal threats. I.e. the US can't compel a European employee to reveal data under a subpoena the way it could compel American citizens. Amazon remains the owner and controls the techno…

Being "100% subject to European law" doesn't override the parent company's obligations under US law. At best, it creates a legal conflict where AWS must violate either US or EU law. Which one will the US parent company prioritize if/when faced with enforcement actions? The only way this would work is if the European operation were truly independent & separately owned, no corporate control from the US. But I don't thi…

Amazon has ownership of the company not a management stake. If you had a startup and filled all your boards seats with only EU board members. That doesn't mean the CEO and other officers are bound by EU law. Sure they could fire CEO and other officers but I bet the bylaws of the company requires officers to be EU citizens.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#39

Post by crazygringo »

pyrale wrote: post #34
crazygringo wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's not how sovereignty works. Actually, it is. It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. And being staffed by Europeans means they are immune to any US legal threats. I.e. the US can't compel a European employee to reveal data under a subpoena the way it could compel American citizens. Amazon remains the owner and controls the techno…

> It will operate as a subsidiary company based in Europe. That means it's 100% subject to European law, not American law. As a subsidiary company, does Amazon retain operational control over that branch? If so, it's subject to the CLOUD act, and therefore, not compatible with EU rules. > Amazon remains the owner and controls the technology, yes. So, basically, the answer is that the EU subsidiary is not independent.…

> If so, it's subject to the CLOUD act, and therefore, not compatible with EU rules.

I'm assuming the CLOUD act is the entire reason why they're explicitly going with European-only staff.

That way Amazon can honestly say it has no operational control to violate EU law because there's no American employee they can command.

Operational control isn't all-or-nothing. European employees will do whatever Amazon tells them unless it breaks European law, in which case they won't. Amazon is intentionally setting it up in a way that it won't be able to do anything about that.

Re: AWS European Sovereign Cloud to be operated by EU citizens

#40

Post by ManBeardPc »

If the development is not happening in the EU it is not sovereign. It is a proprietary solution controlled by an US company. If they pull the plug the EU cloud will not receive security updates nor bugfixes or they simply revoke their licenses. Operating in Europe and by Europeans is not enough.
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