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What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

nytimes.com

121–130 of 198 posts

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#121
post #63

Even the richest customer simply has to wait — sometimes months — before the new suit is finished. No wonder so many pass up a $4,000 bespoke suit for a ready-to-wear Kiton version at twice the price. Isn't it pretty clear here that he should raise prices dramatically ? Clearly the demand is there (people spend twice the price on a inferior product).

Kiton is in an altogether higher tier. According to the Wikipedia, their ready-to-wear line ranges from $5500 to $8000, and their bespoke suits command $20K to $50K. They sell about 20,000 suits a year.

That more or less proves the point.

Clearly pricing below their ready-to-wear line only gets customers who are looking to save money, and people trying to do bespoke suits in that price bracket will get squeezed from below (premium made-to-measure (not the same as bespoke) suits) and low-end ready-to-wear suits from premium manufactures like Kiton.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#122
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patrick, Just wanted to point out that was my first thought as well. Also, wanted to say that I make it a point to read your comment feed on HN. You're one of the 4 folks who I read regularly because of comments like this help me change how I view charging and valuing my work and others.

patio11, pg, tptacek... who is the fourth? I'm on the lookout for more very high quality contributors; sticking to their feeds instead of the front page (I still check front and new, just not as often) has greatly increased the value of this site for me. (Thanks Patrick, Thomas, and Paul!)

Patio11, Tptacek, Danso, and SatvikBeri

I don't read pg, because a lot of his comments come across as babysitting HN, which is necessary for him to do, but not something I want to spend my time on.

I believe that what you put before your eyes, becomes what is in your brain, and you can only think about what you've seen before. What you think about is what gets written on your heart, and our actions are based on our heart. So, I value what I put before my eyes pretty heavily and that's why patio11, tptacek, and SatvikBeri are good reads. Danso is really interesting.

patio11 -- Important because he reminds us (me!) about what we're really worth as programmers and beyond that if we want to increase our worth moving bits better isn't the most efficient way to do that.

tptacek -- I don't always agree with him, but I think his world view is probably the most accurate of anyone on HN. The reason why this matters to me, is If I'm being honest with my self, hugely reliant on mental models. I use tptacek as a source of mental models about the world.

danso -- He has some pretty interesting comments, and I find when he does weigh in, it's usually from personal experience. Photography, Journalism, and data are his big topics of interest.

SatvikBeri -- I've never met the guy, but if you can get past his telling of how he saved his employer $2MM in a single year (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4419277) over and over again, which I find very easy, he's worth reading. He doesn't post as much as the others, so I usually check in once a week or so. In a lot ways though, I think the $2MM story, is worth reading over and over again. It holds a lot of wisdom in how to approach business for the nerd-sphere.

I read HN on cell phone about 95% of the time, and have 127.0.0.1 news.ycombinator.com in my host file, so I just have these guys bookmarked on my cell phone and check in with the top two daily, danso every couple days, and SatvikBeri about once a week.

I also read yummyfajitas and mechanical_fish as well, but far less regularly. Usually, when I see a comment they make, I'll click on their username and read through their comments if I have time.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#123
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

patio11, pg, tptacek... who is the fourth? I'm on the lookout for more very high quality contributors; sticking to their feeds instead of the front page (I still check front and new, just not as often) has greatly increased the value of this site for me. (Thanks Patrick, Thomas, and Paul!)

Patio11, Tptacek, Danso, and SatvikBeri I don't read pg, because a lot of his comments come across as babysitting HN, which is necessary for him to do, but not something I want to spend my time on. I believe that what you put before your eyes, becomes what is in your brain, and you can only think about what you've seen before. What you think about is what gets written on your heart, and our actions are based on our h…

Holy cow, I'm flattered! And, uh, I'll try to diversify my comments a bit.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#124
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offense, but this could be really bad advice. Maybe the customers who'd pay 10k for a suit won't go to some guy's living room for fittings. Or maybe the price of top bespoke tailors in town is comparable, because they make better use of lower-paid assistants. Or maybe, to convince a bank to make the loan he needs to move into a nicer place, he needs to show the bank he has a large backlog of orders. Or maybe he's…

>Or maybe the price of top bespoke tailors in town is comparable Yup. You'll get a beautiful bespoke (not M2M, truly bespoke) suit in an elegant showroom in Manhattan with fantastic customer service for the same money. I've bought basic suits for two-thirds the price, in fact. He might have an attractive pedigree via his apprenticeship, but that's not worth three times the price to me. There is real, legitimate, simi…

[deleted]

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#125
There is huge demand for special clothing and believe it or not Suit today is a special clothing. The point is really people's idea of dressing has changed. There were times when costly clothing automatically meant something. Those days are gone. I find it difficult to imagine, people wearing suits to work these days. Most of them look like 'Odd ones out'.

I don't like to wear a suit, nor does anybody around me unless they are getting married or they are about to meet somebody powerful and rich. There fore clothing industry is 'optimized for the common case'. The only clothing I find worth buying these days is rugged jeans and polo T-shirts. Anything else and I find that to be focusing on ornament more than the substance. Therefore the demand and supply moves in that direction.

The place for bespoke suits today is the distinction that tailored clothing carries. So they continue to remain clothing for 'special occasions'. Needless to say if you want to maintain that sort of distinction, you can't use machines to scale. Because that would mean you that sort of clothing no longer carries that distinction.

Its not that these artists/tailors can't make money other way. They can probably get a job else where and live in better conditions- if they want to. But sometimes people stick to what they do and how they do for unexplainable reasons.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#126
post #60

Frew, who apprenticed with a Savile Row tailor, can — all by himself, and almost all by hand — create a pattern, cut fabric and expertly construct a suit that, for about $4,000, perfectly molds to its owner’s body. In a city filled with very rich people, he quickly had all the orders he could handle. You don't have to be Wall Street to figure out the bleedingly obvious solution to being a starving artist who has so m…

Most of the time proponents of price-elasticity make me laugh. And, I do say this with respect. I used to be one of these proponents. I inhaled business book after business book once done with engineering school. And, I played the game. And I got my ass handed to me. In the real world price elasticity works within a very narrow range that is industry and product specific and can --and usually is-- highly dependent on…

> He can't experiment with pricing too much as word of mouth would destroy his business. If customer B learns that he paid more for the suit that his friend, customer A bought all hell breaks loose.

I agree he would need to be careful. But in this case because there are so many trivial ways in which he can differentiate the products in ways that will sufficiently justify price differences:

* Use more expensive materials. And mark it up heavily. * Provide a luxury service: Visit the client for measurements with a couple of pretty assistants instead of having them come to you, and make the service look more upscale. Send someone over with samples and pictures to get feedback a couple more times than usual. * Make things take longer to give the impression of more effort. There's a shoemaker in London that takes 6 months to produce your pair of shoes. They can optionally provide additional pairs to the same measurements, for a measly additional sum of 500 pounds per pair - the price for their first pair is not listed. I'm sure there are more - that's just one I stumbled over. But this one presents the long time it takes as a mark of quality and status: Most people just go to a store and buy shoes, but you, your shoes take 6 months to be ready. Of course it costs. * Add on lots of stuff that indicate higher quality but that the client has no idea of the real cost/effort for: Finer stiching; more complicated patterns; more detailing inside. etc.

As you point out, he could also charge extra for faster delivery (on top of making his new "premium" service take longer by default, even), or flat out state that due to the demand, there is a waiting list, but a limited number of "rush" order will be processed if you pay a substantial premium.

This is very different from most technology products - suits, or fashion in general, is a very visible status symbol, and beyond a certain quality level, a higher price will often make the product more desirable even when there are no quality differences other than minor visible visual cues that lets those in the know realize that you've paid twice as much.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#127
post #75
post #60

Frew, who apprenticed with a Savile Row tailor, can — all by himself, and almost all by hand — create a pattern, cut fabric and expertly construct a suit that, for about $4,000, perfectly molds to its owner’s body. In a city filled with very rich people, he quickly had all the orders he could handle. You don't have to be Wall Street to figure out the bleedingly obvious solution to being a starving artist who has so m…

The real question is why hasn't he done this already? It's a fairly obvious solution. I suspect that there is some other force at work here, though I'm at a loss to guess what it might be. It's too bad that the NYTimes didn't raise this question.

I am guessing the customer base is already small. And given most of his business would come recommendations and leads.

'He just increased his price'- Is not very nice if you want to get new customers.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when asked by me. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=physiological+effects+of... My general sense: any health effects are likely to be weak at levels typically encountered, but I'm holding as plausible that thee may be some effects.

Microwave oven radio waves are non-ionizing 2.4 Ghz and I suspect they cause several health issues to any living organism exposed to them, even for a short time.

They aren't, unless you're in the oven. And that's different.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#129
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think the suit is dead? Don't know about other places, but at least in NoCal high status people don't wear suits. Since the only function of a suit is status signaling, it seems just a matter of time until everyone else catches up and suits will be replaced by bike jerseys or whatever.

Don't know about other places, but at least in NoCal high status people don't wear suits. There seems to be a kind of inverse snobbery about smart dress at the moment, as if the 50-year-old CEOs of huge tech firms think that by taking off their tie we're going to think they're one of us, or the 25-year-old founder of a trendy start-up is going to convince us of their business savvy by wearing a T-shirt and trainers w…

>>Really? I happen to think that smart dress looks better on me than casual anyway,

Your argument appears wrong because you assume the definition of a 'smart dress' involves wearing a suit.

The definition of 'smart dressing' has been changing rapidly. The very fact that demands for suits is less, shows the trend of clothing around the world.

Back during the days of slavery/aristocracy- costly clothing was automatically a status signal. What you are seeing currently are just echoes of that culture.

I would consider it stupid to spend so much on costly clothing. I am hiring people to write program, not for modeling.

Re: What's a $4000 Suit Worth?

#130
post #75
post #60

Frew, who apprenticed with a Savile Row tailor, can — all by himself, and almost all by hand — create a pattern, cut fabric and expertly construct a suit that, for about $4,000, perfectly molds to its owner’s body. In a city filled with very rich people, he quickly had all the orders he could handle. You don't have to be Wall Street to figure out the bleedingly obvious solution to being a starving artist who has so m…

The real question is why hasn't he done this already? It's a fairly obvious solution. I suspect that there is some other force at work here, though I'm at a loss to guess what it might be. It's too bad that the NYTimes didn't raise this question.

Quit possibly it is ignorance or fear.

I know an African woman who used to go to the living room of some lady that charged her 20 pounds for work that she could easily charge 50 for - African hair can take a lot of work. This lady never raises her prices.

But she gets booked full 3 months in advance, and everyone who goes there raves about here and thinks she is ridiculously cheap.

Now, granted, a lot of those clients would disappear if she charged 30 or 40 or even 50. But she could afford to lose a lot of them, and even at 50 she'd still be cheaper than most similar quality competition in the area.

Simple solution to testing the prices? Hold back some time slots and offer a "rush" service to those willing to pay extra. Use a sob story about how this is family time she is giving up for you. Worst case she books slightly fewer slots for a while, and gives up on it.

But she is too scared to even try because she is terrified of customers going elsewhere... Despite the fact that people are willing to schedule 3 months in advance to get their hair done in her living room instead of walking into their local salon the same day.

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