Earlier quoted context omitted.
How did Uber et al. offer services below cost until they'd driven out all competition? The property holdings are not these landlords' only source of income. Why would milk producers deliberately dump millions of gallons of milk (representing a commensurate amount of labor to both produce and then dispose of)? Because they've created an oversupply that threatens to destabilize the price. The math works, it's just hein…
I never understand why people think Uber is some kind of mic drop. I don't like Uber as a company, but Uber is vastly better than the system it replaced. It this a generational thing? Are the people casting Uber as archvillains just too young to remember not being able to get a cab at 9PM, or having their cabs kick them out halfway to their destination because they decided to go on a break?
The anti-abundance critique on housing is wrong
721–730 of 817 posts
Re: The anti-abundance critique on housing is wrong
#722I just couldn't keep reading with the constant "antitrust left" being refered to on every sentence. The issue, is that for me, the reader, it framed the piece as the author seemingly positioning themselves as the "the other side", the one that knows best and isn't those "antitrust left". It felt like it was creating a strawman and was engaging in tribal signaling. And when you consider the rest of the piece was them…
It all makes sense when you take "abundance liberalism" for what it actually is: a rebranding of neoliberalism in support of establishment democrats. Its main goal is not to provide the democratic party with a new direction, but to defend the status quo against the populist left, incarnated by the likes of AOC and Mamdani. It makes sense then, that they'd spend more time attacking the left than the right, as they rea…
That is an active change
Re: The anti-abundance critique on housing is wrong
#723Earlier quoted context omitted.
This “abundance” ideology which aims to influence Democratic policy promotes YIMBYism to address housing shortages by deregulating construction. It’s this claimed benefit I’m criticizing. Public housing does address this issue, which is why I bring it up. Similarly, gentrification is enabled by this narrow focus on YIMBYism. Upzoning increases land value. Developers build profitable market rate houses there. This inc…
You are arguing as if buildling more make things worse, when in fact, this is not the case. The opposite of buildling more is building less. Building less will increase existing price a lot more on an existing neighborhood than building a new buildling will ever do. When there's not enough housing for people to live in, people start competing on rent and bidding wars on purchases, this drives price very fast. That's…
In the country I live in, our population is a shrinking. Quite literally. There would be fewer people today than last year, and will be fewer people next year than this year. Except...
Re: The anti-abundance critique on housing is wrong
#724Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you think this specific criticism of the “populist left” by the “abundance liberals” is valid though?
Truthfully, I don't. IMHO, abundance liberalism has a blind spot when it comes to the power of money in modern politics. We didn't stumble into a situation where buying a house requires an entire lifetime of work out of sheer bad luck. Some private interests greatly benefit from this situation and have enough power to keep things from changing. Until we address this, and the abundance crowd doesn't want to, all of th…
Nimbyism and people’s desire to keep their property value high is part of it. The levers that have been used to make those values high include a ton of regulation that makes it impossible to build start ups homes even if you were a perfectly moral actor seeking to generate exactly 0 profit.
> until we address all of this
Address what? I was convinced by Ezra and Derek because they constantly show real evidence as the opposing side keeps bringing vibes.
What are your actual, concrete issues that you think the abundance crowd is not addressing and what are your specific policy positions that you think need to be implemented first?
Re: The anti-abundance critique on housing is wrong
#725Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Here's how a rational market works. Might regulations be the result of these "rational markets"? After all, if I invest a lot of money to build apartments, I might want to protect that investment by lobbying for regulations to make it harder for competitors, increasing the value of my investment. Or if I buy an apartment, I might want to prevent others from ruining my view, prevent noise, etc. All completely ration…
I think this is the thing these types of arguments miss. Regulations are the result of another type of market, the vote market. That's the whole point, to counteract hidden failures of the market with another feedback mechanism. For what it's worth, imho Thompson presents a strawman argument about oligopolies to avoid the real critiques. He even kinda contradicts himself at the end because it's convenient for his arg…
> It's never really about oligopolies writ large…
Then why is the anti abundance crowd crowing about how it’s about oligopolies and monopolies?
Re: The anti-abundance critique on housing is wrong
#726Earlier quoted context omitted.
I never understand why people think Uber is some kind of mic drop. I don't like Uber as a company, but Uber is vastly better than the system it replaced. It this a generational thing? Are the people casting Uber as archvillains just too young to remember not being able to get a cab at 9PM, or having their cabs kick them out halfway to their destination because they decided to go on a break?
I think it's largely revulsion that Uber ignored regulations, with the revulsion mostly coming from the types of people outraged by things like Newsom's recent CEQA reform. They support these sorts of stifling rules and believe that skirting or changing those rules is a right-wing ultra-capitalist attack on the public good, despite the situation actually being the exact opposite.
That does seem to be a right-wing capitalist attack on the public good? Like, do we still believe in markets, or are we just cool with mega-corporations setting prices and wages?
Re: The anti-abundance critique on housing is wrong
#727The first two go hand in hand, and could elegantly be solved together:
1 & 2. Pervasively (and perversely), "property taxes" greatly undertax negative externalities, and then heavily (punitively) tax positive externalities.
1. The undertax is that only a fraction of property taxes are just for the land. Land is a limited resource, and "ownership" of land is exclusionary. Exclusion is a negative externality, which is ok as long as that is economically accounted for.
So taxing land more, would encourage more efficient and effective use of it.
2. Property on land is the positive externality. We all benefit when land enables higher active value. More housing, office space, etc.
But it requires investment to improve the usefulness of land, and we not only tax that, but tax it annually, an annual wealth tax!
This is highly perverse, in that it undermines the economics of increasing the productivity of land. Whether a land owner is rich or poor, the economics of putting work or capital into improving one's property come at the cost of being taxed on that improvement - every year - forever.
The solution is to only tax land, not property on it, so land is incentivized to be used efficiently, and investments that improve its active usefulness, are not economically disincentivized.
Making that change and renormalizing "property taxes", not just land taxes, for neutral public revenue, solves both problems with one stone.
A decade or so transition, would allow this change to happen, while giving land and property owners who have made investments under today's regime, time to adapt.
But the end result would be better for everyone.
More efficient, parsimonious, effective use of land. More investments and innovation in increasing property's useful for everyone.
Unlocked growth in real estate returns, as a market primarily based on improving net usefulness, with higher returns, than passive ownership. The latter providing no net benefit to society or the net real estate market.
Credit for the above analysis: Economist Henry George [0]
The third problem significantly compounds the problems of the first two, but would go away naturally if they were solved:
3. Markets take advantage of anything, even inefficiencies.
Given that land is a limited resource, that the value of land increases as investments are made in adjacent properties, even without investments in one's own land, buying up land (with whatever property is on it), and letting others invest in neighboring land is a very good way to get a reliable return on capital. Because demand for land is always going to up, even when used inefficiently, with the current tax regime.
This is an economically parasitical way to make money. It treats land like Bitcoin or gold, in prioritizing its use for passive returns, instead of investment in increasing its active value.
And "parking" of money, for its passive returns, is so reliable, that the financial instrument demand for land drives up prices. Not just by a percentage, but in a self-sustaining and compounding circle of ever rising prices. For an investment "use" that has no net benefit to society.
Resolving problems 1 and 2 would greatly reduce the passive return on land. Which would not only make land use more efficient, but eliminate the compounding pricing problems of near universal use of land as a passive parking place for wealth.
Re: The anti-abundance critique on housing is wrong
#728Earlier quoted context omitted.
You assume they are buying homes to live in. I don't think that's a reasonable assumption. Maybe they buy real estate because it's a useful part of a portfolio. They can rent it or just sit on it and sell it later.
Renting it still increases the housing supply, someone can live there. I doubt there is any significant amount of housing that is just bought and left vacant. Why would you do that? It’s a stupid and expensive place to park money. You have to pay taxes, possibly condo/co-op/HOA fees, pay someone to do maintenance and keep out squatters, pay transaction costs both buying and selling, it can’t be sold quickly. Why woul…
In high-demand areas property value often increases in value over time. You can literally “buy and hold” property, keeping it empty, doing nothing with it and expecting to sell it for a profit at some point in the future. It’s relatively safe and the rate of return can be significantly greater than inflation.
This ignores property taxes and costs of doing business of course. But there are also situations where you might want a reported tax loss on a profitable asset.
Re: The anti-abundance critique on housing is wrong
#729Excessive regulation is 90% of it. Here's how a rational market works. If I build an apartment complex, eventually those apartments will get older and more affordable. And even before that upper middle class folks will move in, freeing up their previous homes. But that's not how many in local governments see it. So you have affordable housing quotas on new developments. You have developers building units for the home…
> In California you can literally just claim a new highrise will block your sunlight and make you sad. That's enough to delay a construction So what's the problem? Land use should be regulated imho, just like air pollution and other commons phenomena. I don't care what kind of towel you buy to dry yourself off with, but I do care if a developer affects the environment and housing around it.
Re: The anti-abundance critique on housing is wrong
#730Earlier quoted context omitted.
I guarantee you all your Oak Park neighbors are the type who were With Hillary in 2016 (probably calling Bernie a sexist) and voted for Biden and against progressive income tax in 2020. They are not leftists. You seem to be having some trouble understanding the difference between democrats, liberals, and leftists. T&K are fundamentally dishonest about the role of euclidean zoning in american cities, who supports it a…
You couldn't be more wrong; this is absolutely Bernie country. In the primaries, it made Washtenaw County MI look like Maricopa County. No, I think I understand just fine what I'm talking about. Again: this is one of the 5 most progressive municipalities in the country.