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I know when you're vibe coding

alexkondov.com

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Re: I know when you're vibe coding

#71

Post by godelski »

elashri wrote: post #57
lmm wrote: post #26

> Because no one would write an HTTP fetching implementation covering all edge cases when we have a data fetching library in the project that already does that. > No one would implement a bunch of utility functions that we already have in a different module. > No one would change a global configuration when there’s a mechanism to do it on a module level. > No one would write a class when we’re using a functional appr…

To be honest, most of these things can happen for poorly documented large codebase. I work on academic research project that have docs that tells you basically that the code is self documented. And give one or two pages about configuring CMake and build the project and another page on how to benchmark the throughout. But the internal quirks and the expected convention you will need to figure it on your own. New peopl…

  > docs that tells you basically that the code is self documented
Anytime someone tells me the code is self-documented I hear "there's no documentation."

The most common programmer's footgun

          I don't have time to document
               |               ^
               v               |
  Spends lots of time trying to understand code
We constantly say we don't have time to document the code. So instead we spend all our time reading code and trying to figure out what it does, to the minimal amount of understanding needed to implement whatever thing we need to implement.

This, of course, itself is naive because you can't know what the minimal necessary information is without knowing something about the whole codebase. Which is also why institutional knowledge is so important and why it is also weird that we'd rather have pay raises through switching companies than through internal raises. That's like trying to fix the damage from the footgun with a footgun.

Re: I know when you're vibe coding

#72

Post by woolion »

palata wrote: post #27

A risk with vibe coding is that it may make a good developer slightly faster, but it will make bad developers waaaay faster. Resulting in more bad code being produced. The question then is: do the bad developers improve by vibe coding, or are they stuck in a local optimum?

So, I was wondering when I would see that... from my experience, I would say it also makes mediocre developers bad ones very fast. The reason being a false sense of confidence, but mostly it's because of the sheer volume that is produced.

If we want to be more precise, I think the main issue is that the AI-generated code lacks a clear architecture. It has no (or very little) respect for overall information flow, and single-responsibility principle.

Since the AI wants you to have "safe" code, so it will catch things and return non-results instead. In practice, that means the calling code has to inspect the result to see if it's a placeholder or not, instead of being confident because you'd get an exception otherwise.

Similarly, to avoid problems the AI might tweak some parameter. If for example you were to design an program to process something with AI, you might to gather_parameters -> call -> process_results. Call should not try to do funky things with parameters because that should be fixed at the gathering step. But locally the AI is always going to suggest having a bunch of "if this parameter is not good, swap it silently so that it can go through anyway".

Then tests are such a problem it would require an even longer explanation...

Re: I know when you're vibe coding

#73

Post by n4r9 »

pulse7 wrote: post #49
buserror wrote: post #32

I personally treat the LLM as a very junior programmer. He's willing to work, will take instructions, but his knowledge of the codebase, and patterns we use is lacking strongly. So it needs a LOT of handholding, very clear instructions, description of potential pitfalls, and smaller, scoped tasks, and reviewed carefully to catch any straying off pattern. Also, I make it work the same way I do: I first come up with th…

The difference between LLM and a very junior programmer: junior programmer will learn and change, LLM won't change! The more instructions you put in the prompt, the more will be forgotten and the more it will bounce back to the "general world-wide average". And on next prompt you must start all over again... Not so with junior programmers ...

The other big difference is that you can spin up an LLM instantly. You can scale up your use of LLMs far more quickly and conveniently than you can hire junior devs. What used to be an occasional annoyance risks becoming a widespread rot.

Re: I know when you're vibe coding

#74

Post by godelski »

lmm wrote: post #26

> Because no one would write an HTTP fetching implementation covering all edge cases when we have a data fetching library in the project that already does that. > No one would implement a bunch of utility functions that we already have in a different module. > No one would change a global configuration when there’s a mechanism to do it on a module level. > No one would write a class when we’re using a functional appr…

I think you're missing the author's thesis

  > Is speed the greatest virtue?
If speed is the greatest virtue then yeah, all that stuff will happen. But if it isn't, then that stuff will happen at a much lower frequency. Because, all the stuff mentioned is just tech debt. Debt doesn't go away, it accrues interest.

If speed is all that matters then you need exponential output, as your output needs to offset the debt. If speed is a factor but isn't the only factor, then you need to weigh it against the other things. Take on debt wisely and pay it off when you can. But it does seem like there's a trend to just take on as much debt and hope for the best. Last I checked, most people aren't really good at handling debt.

Re: I know when you're vibe coding

#75

Post by scotty79 »

> I know the code was generated because it was written in a way no developer on the team would.

> It works, it’s clear, it’s tested, and it’s maintainable.

It would be super funny if he ended his blogpost there.

Re: I know when you're vibe coding

#76

Post by clauderoux »

I love how so many people are eager to criticize LLM code, when in fact, according to my experience it is pretty superior to anything I have seen produced by human programmers, most of the time. It is documented, the code is explained at each step of its creation, and it is pretty readable when you dig into it. I have 30 years of experience in coding, and I have been playing with these LLM for 3 years. Yeah!!! Of course, sometimes they produce very bad code. But in average, the code they produce is largely on par with my fellow humans. And since, they produce the whole explanation of it, it takes a couple of minutes to understand it. And if you don't understand the main points of the code, the LLM will tell you all about it. When did you have a colleague that was eager to explain his/her code to you??? When did you have a colleague that did produce a code you could understand in a few minute??? I really think these tools are quite useful, no need to wrap yourself into the mantel of expertise and look down on these LLM, because sometimes they will produce a code you don't like.

Re: I know when you're vibe coding

#77

Post by michaelsalim »

nosianu wrote: post #61
elashri wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, most of these things can happen for poorly documented large codebase. I work on academic research project that have docs that tells you basically that the code is self documented. And give one or two pages about configuring CMake and build the project and another page on how to benchmark the throughout. But the internal quirks and the expected convention you will need to figure it on your own. New peopl…

> most of these things can happen for poorly documented large codebase. Documentation does not help beyond a point. Nobody reads the documentation repeatedly, which would be needed. When you keep working on a project, and you need a new function, you would need to check or remember every single time that such a function already exists or might exist somewhere. You may have found it when you read the docs months ago,…

I for one think that this discipline is what separates a good developer from being a good engineer. This kind of rigorous process is the kind of thing that I'd expect from most devs but is sadly missing most of the time.

Re: I know when you're vibe coding

#78

Post by anshumankmr »

misnome wrote: post #69
anshumankmr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs have consumed the entire fucking Internet and are still useless. They aren't useless. Otherwise, ChatGPT would have died a long time back > Where the fuck is the rest of the data going to come from? Good question. Personally, I think companies will start paying more for high quality data or what is at least perceived as high quality data. I think Reddit and some other social media companies like it are poised…

> They aren't useless. Otherwise, ChatGPT would have died a long time back Isn’t the entire industry being fuelled by orders of magnitude more VC funding than revenue?

>Isn’t the entire industry being fuelled by orders of magnitude more VC funding than revenue?

Because people want to use it, right? And it is a matter of time before they start limiting the ChatGPT "free" or "logged out" accounts, I feel. In the consumer AI chat apps, it is still the dominant brand, at least in my anecdotal experience, and they will basically make the Plus version the one version of the app to definitely use.

Plus they are planning on selling it to enterprises, and at least a couple of them are signing up for sure.

Re: I know when you're vibe coding

#79

Post by arthens »

misnome wrote: post #69
anshumankmr wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LLMs have consumed the entire fucking Internet and are still useless. They aren't useless. Otherwise, ChatGPT would have died a long time back > Where the fuck is the rest of the data going to come from? Good question. Personally, I think companies will start paying more for high quality data or what is at least perceived as high quality data. I think Reddit and some other social media companies like it are poised…

> They aren't useless. Otherwise, ChatGPT would have died a long time back Isn’t the entire industry being fuelled by orders of magnitude more VC funding than revenue?

Isn't that an argument against the sustainability of the LLM business model rather than their usefulness?

People use them because they are useful, not because they are VC funded.

Re: I know when you're vibe coding

#80

Post by woolion »

philipp-gayret wrote: post #67

All major AI assistants already come with ways to not have any of these issues. Claude Code has /init, Cursor comes with /Generate Cursor Rules, and so on. It's not even context engineering: There are out of the box tools you can use not to have this happen. And even if they do happen: you can make them never happen again, with these same tools, for your entire organization - if you had invested the time to know how…

Serious question: I'm currently re-evaluating if Cursor can speed up my daily work. Currently it is not really the case because of the many subtle errors (like switching a ":" for a ","). But mostly the problem I face is that the code base is big, with entirely outdated parts and poorly coded ones. So the AI favors the most common patterns, which are the bad ones. Even with basic instructions like "take inspiration from " it still mostly takes from the overall codebase (which, by the way, was worsened by a big chunk of vibe-coded output that was hastily merged). My understanding is that a rule should essentially do the same as if it is put in the prompt directly. Is there a solution to that?
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