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Vibe code is legacy code

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Re: Vibe code is legacy code

#71

Post by emehex »

extr wrote: post #35

IMO, the time of "code as math" is over. No sufficiently large software system that interacts with the real world is provable to be correct like a mathematical statement is. They are all complicated, engineered systems that are backed by a mix of formal guarantees, earned design principals, experimental testing, rules of thumb, acceptable performance envelopes, etc This is what all software will become, down to the s…

I think the question to ask about your two scenarios: in which is it faster and cheaper to get from v1 to v2? From v2 to v3? I think, for right now, it's cheaper under scenario B. But in the future? Who knows!

Re: Vibe code is legacy code

#72

Post by exasperaited »

pyman wrote: post #2

Something interesting is happening. A false narrative is spreading online, pushed by people who know little about engineering, and others who should know better. They claim junior devs are now 10x more productive, and project managers are shipping code themselves. Now, close your eyes for five seconds and try to picture what that code looks like. It's 100% legacy, disposable code. The problem isn't AI, or PMs turning…

> And a product is not the same as an MVP

Hahaha you're funny :-)

Re: Vibe code is legacy code

#73

Post by khaledh »

mr_donk wrote: post #61

Don't you think the next step is a programming language that isn't even meant to be human readable? What's the point of using an LLM to generate python or Swift or whatever? The output of the LLM should be something that runs and does whatever it's been asked to do... why should the implementation be some programming language that was designed for humans to grok? Once that's true the idea of it being maintainable bec…

It might even get further. I imagine a day where AI would generate an executable neural network that models (and is optimized for) a specific problem; i.e. kind of a model that runs on a neural network runtime or VM. Who cares what the NN is doing as long as it's doing its job correctly. The big catch, though, is the keyword "correctly" and I would add "deterministically" to it, in order for users to trust it.

Re: Vibe code is legacy code

#74

Post by xnx »

stevekrouse wrote: post #39
xnx wrote: post #20

Is the argument that it's better to start from an empty code editor than having AI create a working first version? I've found it faster to have AI write the code, revise with instructions as necessary, and delve into the code itself if I need to.

The argument is that if you intent to maintain the code you should keep the AI on a very tight leash, and at least understand the architecture of the code, if not every line.

This is good advice for any code contribution. Current AI is definitely not better than the best programmers, but is often better than junior programmers (who often carry a "senior" title now).

Re: Vibe code is legacy code

#75

Post by ge96 »

mr_donk wrote: post #61

Don't you think the next step is a programming language that isn't even meant to be human readable? What's the point of using an LLM to generate python or Swift or whatever? The output of the LLM should be something that runs and does whatever it's been asked to do... why should the implementation be some programming language that was designed for humans to grok? Once that's true the idea of it being maintainable bec…

Wasn't there a word doc to code

Re: Vibe code is legacy code

#76

Post by skydhash »

stevekrouse wrote: post #66
skydhash wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we have plenty of tools that helps us understanding code. Things like inspectors (UI,network,..), tracing (including the old printf), debuggers (stack frame for function calls and variable values), grep (for context and overview) and static analysers. I see people going all in with LLMs and forgetting that those even exists. It's hard to take such people seriously.

Strong agree! For example, we at Val Town just invested very heavily in getting a good ol' fashioned language server to work in our product to power hover-overs and type information in our web editor. That'll likely be our next company blog post...

I like LLM as a technology (just got trough a couple of courses on Machine learning this year). But when we have all these tools available, the next step is making a better UI for them (Kinda like IDEs do), not reinvent everything from scratch.

Re: Vibe code is legacy code

#77

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

stevekrouse wrote: post #36
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #29

> and throwaway projects I have seldom encountered these. What I encounter, instead, are lashups that the engineering team thought would be throwaway, but which Management made "Final Ship" code. I have learned to always do "ship-shape" code; even for the most innocuous projects. I may be a bit sloppy as I'm exploring different paths, but the minute I decide on a firm plan, the code cleanup and documentation starts.

Vibe coding is allowing everyone (including me!) to make way more apps in my personal life that are very throwaway. I think some folks are doing this in business contexts too. But this is a real game-changer for non-technical folks

Yes and no.

If you ship, and charge money for it, you are responsible for maintaining it. Can’t treat it as throwaway, even if you meant it as such.

Re: Vibe code is legacy code

#78

Post by mr_donk »

khaledh wrote: post #73
mr_donk wrote: post #61

Don't you think the next step is a programming language that isn't even meant to be human readable? What's the point of using an LLM to generate python or Swift or whatever? The output of the LLM should be something that runs and does whatever it's been asked to do... why should the implementation be some programming language that was designed for humans to grok? Once that's true the idea of it being maintainable bec…

It might even get further. I imagine a day where AI would generate an executable neural network that models (and is optimized for) a specific problem; i.e. kind of a model that runs on a neural network runtime or VM. Who cares what the NN is doing as long as it's doing its job correctly. The big catch, though, is the keyword "correctly" and I would add "deterministically" to it, in order for users to trust it.

yeah, that's probably more along the lines of what I was thinking, actually, you just worded it better :)

Re: Vibe code is legacy code

#79

Post by exasperaited »

hibikir wrote: post #4

I think you are not going far enough though: All code is legacy code. So vibe coding's ability to make writing more code faster isn't special because it's code nobody understands: Your hand-rolled code is also bad. Once you embrace the fact that all the code is legacy, then it's clear how writing more code, faster cannot be helpful from a maintenance POV: You are just creating more work for yourself. And no, librarie…

> I think you are not going far enough though: All code is legacy code. So vibe coding's ability to make writing more code faster isn't special because it's code nobody understands: Your hand-rolled code is also bad.

This is "but humans also", which I believe should be a recognised fallacy at this point.

Not all code is legacy code, for one thing; some is small enough that it is absolutely live in the minds of developers.

The best practical definition of legacy code is that it is voluminous, entrenched and owned by nobody currently in the organisation. Vibe code typically meets two of those requirements the moment it is produced.

Re: Vibe code is legacy code

#80

Post by calrain »

pyman wrote: post #2

Something interesting is happening. A false narrative is spreading online, pushed by people who know little about engineering, and others who should know better. They claim junior devs are now 10x more productive, and project managers are shipping code themselves. Now, close your eyes for five seconds and try to picture what that code looks like. It's 100% legacy, disposable code. The problem isn't AI, or PMs turning…

Have you seen how enterprises write code for internal use?

It's no different to vibe coding, except if you ask an LLM to harden your code base to pass a pen test, it will do something.

Enterprises just don't give a sh!t.

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