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'70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

electrek.co

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Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#21

Post by zaphar »

rib3ye wrote: post #6
zaphar wrote: post #2

That's not an e-bike. That's an electric motorcycle.

Take a look at the Super73 mentioned in the piece: It has pedals directly connected to a chain. That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed. Edit: I am not saying these things aren't crazy fast and dangerous, but if you go into an electric motorcycle store and they try to sell you an e-bike with a pedal assist, it's obvious they are not the same thing. The form-factor is just different.

That may be the official technical definition but in practice speed is the real reason for dividing between bicycle and motorcycle and moped. It's also the primary reason we require licenses for some and not for others.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#22

Post by criddell »

potato3732842 wrote: post #5

Going 30 on anything that resembles a bike in geometry and construction is not a leisurely activity one engages in casually. 40 is pushing it, 50 you know is unsafe. 70 is a publicity stunt in a controlled environment. Yes, I know road bikes (with or without electricity) hit high speeds in certain situations, but those situations are away from traffic or potential traffic, a big downhill in the middle of nowhere or a…

The road through my neighborhood has a speed limit of 40 mph. I drive around that speed and there are often kids on ebikes (on the sidewalk!) pacing me or even going faster.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#23

Post by mPReDiToR »

Unless a cop actually sees you doing a ridiculous speed they aren't going to check for P/W ratio or motor output

Electric scooters are illegal in the UK, but police don't have time or inclination to stop their widespread usage on public roads, and you're safe to ride past them unless you're doing something stupid.

So many things like this have people getting away with it that the laws are just ignored eventually.

When one has an incident ... Well, the hand wringers are out in droves telling everyone they told us so.

Underfunded and under resourced police can't cope with the workload, for a change.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#24

Post by toast0 »

skeeter2020 wrote: post #17
rib3ye wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at the Super73 mentioned in the piece: It has pedals directly connected to a chain. That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed. Edit: I am not saying these things aren't crazy fast and dangerous, but if you go into an electric motorcycle store and they try to sell you an e-bike with a pedal assist, it's obvious they are not the same thing. The form-factor is just different.

This is not true, and may fool a casual glance but legally is not classified as a bicycle. The difference is if it has a throttle or is pedal assist. No one is hitting 30 mph on these things without a throttle

Pedal assist can almost certainly be tuned to get you to 30 mph if the motor can do it. I've used a few e-bikes, and the nice ones have pedal assist that has good feel, but the less expensive ones have pedal assist that's a janky throttle with more steps.

I understand the motivation for requiring pedal assist rather than a throttle, but the motor speed cutout is the important bit. If I can put it in easy gear and pedal to operate the throttle while the chain is freewheeling the whole time, the pedals are just a throttle I operate with my feet; I'm not actually providing any of the energy for locomotion.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#25

Post by [deleted] »

habosa wrote: post #18

I ride my ebike to work every day. I love it, it's a lot more convenient than my old manual bike was (more durable, less sweating in hilly SF). I really try hard to be conscientious and not do anything on it that a very strong normal cyclist wouldn't/couldn't do. I almost never have any occasion to top 20mph on it, except maybe when going down a steep hill. I don't want to advocate for more regulations on biking but…

[deleted]

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#26

Post by Spivak »

vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #4
Spivak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license more than the 70mph bike. Clearly speed isn't the only thing that matters to this classification and we've made a mess conflating "can ride on public roads" and "can operate a motor vehicle" and deciding what exactly we have a problem with for under 16…

Good question. I think this makes sense. The distinction between bike and motorcycle should be based on capability. So if you reduce the speed of a motorcycle you could argue that it’s a bike now.

I personally don't see a difference between large motor with capped speed and a small motor legally speaking. The thing you want is a speed limit and you got it. Clearly bike riders prefer a capped large motor because you get better acceleration and responsiveness. If you modify it to go outside of its class then that's your problem if you get caught.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#27

Post by extr »

I have a JackRabbit OG e-bike [0] (really technically an electric scooter, since it doesn't have pedals). I recently put an aftermarket controller on it to allow for speeds past 20mph, and to allow for higher current to the 350W motor (accepting the risk of increased wear and burn out). It's a ton of fun to ride, can get up to 30-35mph or so though I never take it that high (dangerous). I mostly just use the increased torque for hills.

What's interesting to me though is when I lived in a city, there was zero enforcement of e-bike laws, classifications, etc. I never saw a cop glance my way. Of course, the only riders of e-bikes were adults, and people generally followed traffic laws.

Now that I live in the suburbs, the only other riders of e-bikes are teens and it's a huge issue! I have to be careful exceeding my speed class, it's noticable how much power my apparently modest bike has. Cops have already stopped me once to ask more about the bike, and accepted my explanation that while it's powerful, it has a software governer to keep it within limits. The cop seemed to give me an easier time because of my age (in my 30s), and the fact that I'm an adult with a regular driver's license. I got the sense if they had caught a teen with the bike, they would have been ticketed and the bike impounded.

[0] https://jackrabbit.bike/

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#28

Post by ender341341 »

Spivak wrote: post #3
zaphar wrote: post #2

That's not an e-bike. That's an electric motorcycle.

If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license more than the 70mph bike. Clearly speed isn't the only thing that matters to this classification and we've made a mess conflating "can ride on public roads" and "can operate a motor vehicle" and deciding what exactly we have a problem with for under 16…

> If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike?

in the article they call it out that yes currently the max speed of the bike is what's defined under the law and they're tightening that down to also include motor power (so it's harder for people to buy an artificially speed limited bike and remove the limiter while avoiding the regulations that go with that).

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#29

Post by hnuser123456 »

potato3732842 wrote: post #5

Going 30 on anything that resembles a bike in geometry and construction is not a leisurely activity one engages in casually. 40 is pushing it, 50 you know is unsafe. 70 is a publicity stunt in a controlled environment. Yes, I know road bikes (with or without electricity) hit high speeds in certain situations, but those situations are away from traffic or potential traffic, a big downhill in the middle of nowhere or a…

I have a class 3 ebike, so 20mph throttle-only, 28mph if you pretend to pedal for whatever reason. The requirement to pedal is more dangerous than the speed. It's fast, but on a long, straight, paved path, it's not that scary, and I wanted to go faster. If I could just throttle it up to 35mph, I wouldn't even need bike lanes around town. 45mph, and I could easily get to the next town over. It's a lighter, slower, cheaper motorcycle that doesn't need a license, registration, insurance, or gasoline. I really do think we should add a few more classes for higher speeds, and I don't think we need more barriers to entry either. I'm not sure what about this is worth laughing at?

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#30

Post by Dylan16807 »

throw0101c wrote: post #13

I personally like the EU rule (168/2013) on e-bikes for this: > pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h [15.5 mph] * https://en…

What's the point of the weight ratio? If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern?
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