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'70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

electrek.co

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Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#11

Post by droopyEyelids »

potato3732842 wrote: post #5

Going 30 on anything that resembles a bike in geometry and construction is not a leisurely activity one engages in casually. 40 is pushing it, 50 you know is unsafe. 70 is a publicity stunt in a controlled environment. Yes, I know road bikes (with or without electricity) hit high speeds in certain situations, but those situations are away from traffic or potential traffic, a big downhill in the middle of nowhere or a…

The way I'm interpreting what you said, it feels like you're dismissing the state's role in protecting the health of citizens. Especially children, who are known to be deficient in their judgement and decision making.

It's not reasonable to say "every parent should learn about the dangers of different types of electric vehicle through the injury of a child in their peer group"

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#12

Post by quickthrowman »

Spivak wrote: post #3
zaphar wrote: post #2

That's not an e-bike. That's an electric motorcycle.

If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license more than the 70mph bike. Clearly speed isn't the only thing that matters to this classification and we've made a mess conflating "can ride on public roads" and "can operate a motor vehicle" and deciding what exactly we have a problem with for under 16…

> If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike?

Most jurisdictions use engine size, so you’d need a 49cc engine in your Harley. I doubt it would even get up to 30mph with a 49cc engine, have fun!

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#13

Post by throw0101c »

I personally like the EU rule (168/2013) on e-bikes for this:

> pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h [15.5 mph]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws#European...

If all you have to do is push a button/lever and it goes then it's basically another form of motorcycle. However, you may be allowed to operate low-powered motorcycles with 'just' a car license:

> B: In some countries, holders of a B driver licence are also entitled (sometimes with special conditions) to ride motorcycles

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_driving_licence

So e-bikes/scooters don't necessarily need special licensing.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#14

Post by Sayrus »

potato3732842 wrote: post #5

Going 30 on anything that resembles a bike in geometry and construction is not a leisurely activity one engages in casually. 40 is pushing it, 50 you know is unsafe. 70 is a publicity stunt in a controlled environment. Yes, I know road bikes (with or without electricity) hit high speeds in certain situations, but those situations are away from traffic or potential traffic, a big downhill in the middle of nowhere or a…

Let's face it, an e-bike that goes to 70 rarely looks like a bike. For instance:

- https://hpcbikes.com/products/revolution-xx

- https://www.eridepros.com/pro-sr (no bicycle pedals)

I was able to find some 60MPH e-bikes that looks somewhat like a very bulky bike but even then, it's still closer to a motorcycle with pedals.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#15

Post by Dylan16807 »

potato3732842 wrote: post #5

Going 30 on anything that resembles a bike in geometry and construction is not a leisurely activity one engages in casually. 40 is pushing it, 50 you know is unsafe. 70 is a publicity stunt in a controlled environment. Yes, I know road bikes (with or without electricity) hit high speeds in certain situations, but those situations are away from traffic or potential traffic, a big downhill in the middle of nowhere or a…

I think your argument works in a callous way if we ignore any speeds between 30 and 70 and we also ignore teenagers.

But in reality there's a lot of untrained teens going different levels of too fast and that is something we should be trying to prevent.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#16

Post by shkkmo »

> It’s not clear that such speeds are actually capable on stock parts from nearly any electric bicycle, and legal electric bikes are not capable of exceeding either 20 or 28 mph, depending on their classification,

It's like the author did zero research.

While you can't easily modify most bikes to hit 70mph, there is an entire market segment of "class 2" "ebikes" than can be trivially modified to reach speeds that significantly exceed what the law allows (and arguably what is safe on those hardware components.) Often this can be done in the software without any hardware modification. If it can't, there are usually simple modifications that can be made to achieve the same thing.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#17

Post by skeeter2020 »

rib3ye wrote: post #6
zaphar wrote: post #2

That's not an e-bike. That's an electric motorcycle.

Take a look at the Super73 mentioned in the piece: It has pedals directly connected to a chain. That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed. Edit: I am not saying these things aren't crazy fast and dangerous, but if you go into an electric motorcycle store and they try to sell you an e-bike with a pedal assist, it's obvious they are not the same thing. The form-factor is just different.

This is not true, and may fool a casual glance but legally is not classified as a bicycle. The difference is if it has a throttle or is pedal assist. No one is hitting 30 mph on these things without a throttle

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#18

Post by habosa »

I ride my ebike to work every day. I love it, it's a lot more convenient than my old manual bike was (more durable, less sweating in hilly SF). I really try hard to be conscientious and not do anything on it that a very strong normal cyclist wouldn't/couldn't do. I almost never have any occasion to top 20mph on it, except maybe when going down a steep hill.

I don't want to advocate for more regulations on biking but ... people are assholes. I see so many people ripping on those moped-style ebikes. Going 30mph+ in a crowded bike lane, riding the wrong way against traffic, riding on sidewalks, texting, etc. Yes people _could_ do all of those things on regular bikes but in my experience they mostly didn't.

I would be in favor of a law limiting pedal assist to 20mph and below. You can go faster than that, but the motor won't help you. 30mph is where most bikes top out right now and in a city that's faster than most car traffic. Way too fast for anything that follows bicycle laws (use of the bike lane, rolling stops allowed at stop signs, etc).

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#19

Post by RhysU »

vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #4
Spivak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license more than the 70mph bike. Clearly speed isn't the only thing that matters to this classification and we've made a mess conflating "can ride on public roads" and "can operate a motor vehicle" and deciding what exactly we have a problem with for under 16…

Good question. I think this makes sense. The distinction between bike and motorcycle should be based on capability. So if you reduce the speed of a motorcycle you could argue that it’s a bike now.

Capability is a poor metric.

Bicycles go downhill real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography.

Bicycles can be geared to go across the salt flats real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography.

Bicycles, even without crazy geography or gearing, can be ridden real damn fast by professionals. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how well-trained the person atop it is. Says Wikipedia:

> The 2025 edition was the fastest Tour de France in history. Tadej Pogačar rode 3,298.6 km in 76h 00m 32s, thus realising an overall speed of 43.4 km/h or 27.0 mph.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#20

Post by skeeter2020 »

quickthrowman wrote: post #12
Spivak wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? I'm sure teenagers would love this loophole to drive a motorcycle without a license more than the 70mph bike. Clearly speed isn't the only thing that matters to this classification and we've made a mess conflating "can ride on public roads" and "can operate a motor vehicle" and deciding what exactly we have a problem with for under 16…

> If I put a speed limiter on a Harley so that it doesn't exceed 30 mph is it a bike? Most jurisdictions use engine size, so you’d need a 49cc engine in your Harley. I doubt it would even get up to 30mph with a 49cc engine, have fun!

and - unless your jurisidiction has a scooter license category - you still need a regular drivers license.
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