Sleep all comes down to the mitochondria • Hacker News Board

Re: Sleep all comes down to the mitochondria

#201

Post by timr » Wed, Jul 30, 2025, 5:13 PM UTC

ajkjk wrote: post #198

timr wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the ancient mystery of why we need sleep might have just been answered. No, science doesn't work that way. The ancient mystery of why we need sleep has a new theory [1]. [1] I am assuming it is new. It might actually be old. I don't know.

a completely unnecessary interjection "might have been answered" is absolutely valid: the correct theory might have been produced

On the contrary, this is such a common misunderstanding that it practically defines the meme of pop science.

Proposal of a hypothesis is not answering. Even if, decades from now and after many additional studies, scientific consensus settles on this hypothesis as "the answer", the first paper to speculate about the idea is still just a speculation. Moreover, if you're an outsider, the speculation is often an idea that's been floating around the field for longer than you've been aware of it.

Basically, just abandon your notion that there is "an answer" to any sufficiently complex scientific question, and you will be better off.

Re: Sleep all comes down to the mitochondria

#202

Post by mrbungie » Wed, Jul 30, 2025, 5:13 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #196

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #2

So the ancient mystery of why we need sleep might have just been answered. The paper shows that cell‑autonomous mild uncoupling in Drosophila sleep‑inducing neurons -- via Ucp4A/Ucp4C -- keeps the flies awake by lowering mitochondrial Δp and therefore electron leak. This suggests a biochemical rationale for sleep -- which is postponed by the uncoupler. That form of pharmacological manipulation is also a very local in…

> So the ancient mystery of why we need sleep might have just been answered. No, science doesn't work that way. The ancient mystery of why we need sleep has a new theory [1]. [1] I am assuming it is new. It might actually be old. I don't know.

I don't think GP was rigorous, but your comment is kind of pedantic, isn't it?

Most people commenting here know that all models are false but some make good predictions, and achieving that status is enough for most laypeople to classify it as a (potential) answer.

Going further, yes, this is a new theory among others, but afaik is the first one with strong evidence.

Re: Sleep all comes down to the mitochondria

#203

Post by FuriouslyAdrift » Wed, Jul 30, 2025, 5:14 PM UTC

jjk166 wrote: post #75

ddalex wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why ancient ancestors started sleeping I tend to believe that our ancestors didn't start sleeping, they started waking up ! the default pattern is sleep and conservation of energy, but you need to wake up to expend more energy for a short period in order to feed yourself efficiently

There definitely was never a life form which exclusively slept - all the critical parts of life require being awake. Life that didn't sleep, however, is possible.

Depends on your definition but several...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unihemispheric_slow-wave_sleep

Re: Sleep all comes down to the mitochondria

#204

Post by brbrodude » Wed, Jul 30, 2025, 5:15 PM UTC

satvikpendem wrote: post #58

I wonder how this relates to sleep apnea, as in that state you sleep more the less oxygen you get. By the way, many people who don't think they have it yet feel tired during the day or simply feel like they need more sleep should get tested for it, as it's not just a problem for the obese.

My dad always had a notorious sleep apnea but also has notoriously been strong & 'youthful' all his life, very active, even up to this day at almost 70(never working desk jobs, always moving, etc). This always leaves me wondering about how relevant & impactful this kind of thing really is..

Re: Sleep all comes down to the mitochondria

#205

Post by type0 » Wed, Jul 30, 2025, 5:17 PM UTC

nialse wrote: post #160

Symmetry wrote: post #78

Could this be an explanation for why people who go without sleep for long enough eventually just die? The Guinness Book of World Records doesn't accept records on staying awake for the same reason they don't accept records for the longest game of Russian Roulette.

While it is true that Guiness stopped keeping track of records of staying awake for health reasons, people with severe sleep deprivation ends up being psychotic and admitted to psychiatric care and administered sleep inducing drugs. So, lack of sleep is not something you die from short term. Long term (years, decades) short sleep is associated with higher all cause mortality risk though.

there's this prion disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_insomnia

Re: Sleep all comes down to the mitochondria

#206

Post by francisofascii » Wed, Jul 30, 2025, 5:18 PM UTC

rogerkirkness wrote: post #137

emsign wrote: post #136

Increasing the count and efficiency of mitochondria is gonna be a big deal. ME/CFS is caused by these organelles not working as they should.

Highly recommend red light therapy for this. There's a spreadsheet that contains [1] all the scientific research does on effect on mitochondria. [1]: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/1/d/1ZKl5Me4XwPj4YgJC...

Isn’t simply getting enough outdoor sunlight just as good as red light therapy.

Re: Sleep all comes down to the mitochondria

#207

Post by throwawayffffas » Wed, Jul 30, 2025, 5:22 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #170

tingletech wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, at night they breath oxygen. Maybe they sleep during the day.

But their cells still consume oxygen during the day, don't they? In sunshine they produce more oxygen than they consume, but the cells are still fundamentally powered by mitochondria oxidizing glucose

You still consume oxygen when sleeping.

Re: Sleep all comes down to the mitochondria

#208

Post by cubefox » Wed, Jul 30, 2025, 5:24 PM UTC

hearsathought wrote: post #144

eutropia wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TFA also acknowledges this: > There could well be many other functions that have since joined in with the sleep cycle (such as memory consolidation), but the authors hypothesize that mitochondrial function is the process that underlies all of them. If you need oxygen, then you need sleep!

> If you need oxygen, then you need sleep! Do plants sleep? Don't some insects, like flies, live without any sleep?

No, plants don't sleep, and neither do fungi or single celled organisms. Sleep seems to be a property specifically of animals.

Re: Sleep all comes down to the mitochondria

#209

Post by timr » Wed, Jul 30, 2025, 5:25 PM UTC

mrbungie wrote: post #202

timr wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the ancient mystery of why we need sleep might have just been answered. No, science doesn't work that way. The ancient mystery of why we need sleep has a new theory [1]. [1] I am assuming it is new. It might actually be old. I don't know.

I don't think GP was rigorous, but your comment is kind of pedantic, isn't it? Most people commenting here know that all models are false but some make good predictions, and achieving that status is enough for most laypeople to classify it as a (potential) answer. Going further, yes, this is a new theory among others, but afaik is the first one with strong evidence.

I don't mean it as an attack on GP, but no, I don't agree that this is pedantic. This happens constantly when science is popularized -- people read one article and leap to the conclusion that a problem has been revolutionized/solved/answered simply because they're reading about it -- and no, the HN audience is no better. Technophiles love a good scientific revolution story.

It's very much a fundamental misunderstanding of how science works. Almost nothing in science has an answer, and if you let your brain lock in that way, you forego the opportunity to ask interesting questions. It also leads directly to lots of downstream pathologies common in amongst laypeople (e.g. "The Science is Settled", which it almost never is).

> Going further, yes, this is a new theory among others, but afaik is the first one with strong evidence.

I am not an expert in this field, but others have evidence too. Particularly when asking "why" questions like this, the bar for proof is incredibly high.

Re: Sleep all comes down to the mitochondria

#210

Post by throwawayffffas » Wed, Jul 30, 2025, 5:27 PM UTC

jldugger wrote: post #156

jjk166 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is also what I am referring to. Energetic activity is required to live and to reproduce, those are the normal activities. An active creature may have evolved a state of dormancy for various reasons, but there was never an organism in a state of pure dormancy.

Do sponges sleep?

Presumably. Some jellyfish sleep[1]

But do fungi and Archea sleep?

My guess based on what we read is yes and no.

[1] https://www.science.org/content/article/if-alive-sleeps-brai...