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200k Flemish drivers can turn traffic lights green

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Re: 200k Flemish drivers can turn traffic lights green

#111

Post by tzs »

hypfer wrote: post #73
ralferoo wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these systems used RF before, so anything in the vicinity could listen in. That said, if this new system is a phone app, it'll just be using phone data instead, so it'd be hard for that to be intercepted.

No, it would be _easier_ for them to intercept, because now there's a central server you need to access to know about ALL units within the country.

If we are assuming terrorists that can get real time access to government servers, we should assume they will access the servers used by the dispatchers and so can find out when an emergency vehicle leaves and where its destination is.

That is probably more useful for planning an attack on emergency vehicles.

Although why even bother with servers? Just call in a fake emergency (or cause a real emergency) at a place of your choosing, and the government will send emergency vehicles to you.

Re: 200k Flemish drivers can turn traffic lights green

#112

Post by Noumenon72 »

sschueller wrote: post #63
kuon wrote: post #56

Here (switzerland) lights turn red on purpose to slow down traffic. The idea is that if you see a green light in the distance, you are motivated to speed up to catch it before it turns red. If it is red in the distance, you slow down because you eventually have to stop, and when you are like 20m from it, detectors will see you and turn it green.

Aka Grünewelle (Green-wave)[1] if you drive the speed limit every light you reach will turn green. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_wave

Thanks for explaining, because the OP made it sound like the red light tricked you into wastefully shedding speed instead of letting you stay at the speed limit. Their language makes it sound like they view slowing traffic as intrinsically good, rather than just trying to prevent speeding.

Re: 200k Flemish drivers can turn traffic lights green

#113

Post by PeterStuer »

shkkmo wrote: post #106
PeterStuer wrote: post #42

Just in case you wonder, these are apps of commercial data-sharing/selling businesses, not some 'official' gov app for the benefit of the citizens. They are the products of https://ndrive.com/ , https://www.flitsmeister.nl and https://be-mobile.com/ . They also focus on toll collecting and parking fees, so "pay to play" is in a sense already in their DNA. Why do these commercial entities get to influence public traff…

> these are apps of commercial data-sharing/selling businesses, not some 'official' gov app for the benefit of the citizens. While there are a few of commercial apps that can integrate now, The goal is to have every navigation/gps app have the ability to do this. This can also be done by privacy friendly apps. > Why do these commercial entities get to influence public traffic lights? The commercial entities don't inf…

"This can also be done by privacy friendly apps."

But it is not.

"The commercial entities don't influence anything, they provide a tool for their users to influence the lights."

While milking their data with gov backed incentives. Pay us with your data, and we will provide you tweaking traffic lights. What exactly are you running defense for?

"Traffic isn't (or shouldn't be) a competition but a cooperation"

Have you driven in Belgium? It is what it is, not what it "should" be.

Re: 200k Flemish drivers can turn traffic lights green

#114

Post by qualeed »

crisnoble wrote: post #104
Ajedi32 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing they wouldn't need to fiddle with an app; the software would just automatically signal their approach based on GPS/navigation info. I agree theoretically a camera + machine-learning based system could work just as well; I've always wondered why that wasn't standard on traffic lights these days given that the hardware would probably cost a few hundred dollars (if procurement for said hardware were done co…

Are we are the stage where it is normal to be giving governments always on background access to our gps location voluntarily?

I mean, if your concern is government, your already shit out of luck between your cellphone pinging cell towers, license plate readers, CCTV cameras, Ring cameras, Wi-Fi pinging, etc.

(I would agree that I wouldn't necessarily want fine-grained gps location data being sent to the lowest bidding for-profit traffic light monitoring company.)

Re: 200k Flemish drivers can turn traffic lights green

#116

Post by gruez »

ellenhp wrote: post #110
gruez wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My experience as a cyclist contradicts that: many motorists will still (riskily) overtake you just to reach the red light sooner. Some people apparently just can't stand to have anyone driving before them. ??? Seems like the far more plausible reason is that drivers don't want to be held up by a cyclist traveling at 10mph in front of them? Moreover if it's really true that lights only turn from red once a car reache…

Sibling commenter covered most of what I have to say but the other reason this is wrong is because many bicycles can go 20-30mph, and I'm just going to leapfrog you anyway at the red light you're racing me to wait at. Other times cars try to kill me to save themselves a few seconds: 1. turning right into a parking lot ahead of me 2. turning right out of the parking lot ahead of me 3. rushing to open their driver's si…

>Sibling commenter covered most of what I have to say but the other reason this is wrong is because many bicycles can go 20-30mph, and I'm just going to leapfrog you anyway at the red light you're racing me to wait at.

Right, but the whole premise of this thread is that the lights only turn green after a car approaches. If you overtake the bicycle so you can get there 5s faster, then the light will turn green 5s faster. Sure, whether risking an overtake to save 5s might be questionable, but is at least a more understandable reason than "Some people apparently just can't stand to have anyone driving before them", which makes it sound like the driver can't stand being #2.

Re: 200k Flemish drivers can turn traffic lights green

#117

Post by gruez »

shkkmo wrote: post #99
gruez wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My experience as a cyclist contradicts that: many motorists will still (riskily) overtake you just to reach the red light sooner. Some people apparently just can't stand to have anyone driving before them. ??? Seems like the far more plausible reason is that drivers don't want to be held up by a cyclist traveling at 10mph in front of them? Moreover if it's really true that lights only turn from red once a car reache…

> Seems like the far more plausible reason is that drivers don't want to be held up by a cyclist traveling at 10mph in front of them? You sound like one of thos drivers who believe it's OK to put other people at risk to save themselves a couple of seconds. I see this all the time in my large truck that I'm very good at coasting into red lights. Even when there are already vehicles stopped at the light, people will no…

>You sound like one of thos drivers who believe it's OK to put other people at risk to save themselves a couple of seconds.

See my other comment. My point isn't that it's suddenly okay to overtake because the driver can shave off 5s, just that the cartoonishly evil caricature of the driver's reasoning that OP dreamed up isn't accurate. Unfortunately, judging by the downvotes it seems like people are interpreting my opposition to OP's claim that "Some people apparently just can't stand to have anyone driving before them" as me arguing that it's fine for drivers to mow down cyclists to save 5s.

Re: 200k Flemish drivers can turn traffic lights green

#118

Post by toast0 »

bluecalm wrote: post #75
phkahler wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why they need apps for this either. The infrastructure should be in place to detect cars approaching from the side street. Once they have the ability to detect cars, it's simple to assume everyone would be requesting a green light.

We have those in Poland. Sucks if you are on a bike. You need to wait for a car to turn it green for you.

If they're using inductive vehicle detector loops in the pavement, those can be tuned to detect motorcycles and bicycles (probably not carbon fiber bikes though). Where I've seen and used loops tuned for bicycles, they have a different cut pattern and a painted bike to accent positions where the detector is likely to detect you... Sadly, they don't tend to have far back detectors (advance loops) tuned for bikes so an idle intersection won't be green when you get there like if you were a car. You can sometimes get a detection on a car tuned detector by riding right on top of the wire, but it's iffy.

I'd imagine camera detectors can be tuned for bicyclists as well, but I have less experience with those.

Here's a nice survey of bicycle detection options [1], if you're willing to work with whoever does traffic control near you, this might help get a conversation started. This is focused on US applications, but the ideas should be broadly applicable.

[1] https://altago.com/wp-content/uploads/ALTA_Bike_Detection_Wh...

Re: 200k Flemish drivers can turn traffic lights green

#119

Post by Ajedi32 »

crisnoble wrote: post #104
Ajedi32 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm guessing they wouldn't need to fiddle with an app; the software would just automatically signal their approach based on GPS/navigation info. I agree theoretically a camera + machine-learning based system could work just as well; I've always wondered why that wasn't standard on traffic lights these days given that the hardware would probably cost a few hundred dollars (if procurement for said hardware were done co…

Are we are the stage where it is normal to be giving governments always on background access to our gps location voluntarily?

I can think of a few ways to do this in a privacy-preserving way. The traffic light doesn't need to know your location or who you are, just whether there is a car approaching. But yeah good chance whoever designed this didn't put that much thought into it.

Re: 200k Flemish drivers can turn traffic lights green

#120

Post by robocat »

helsinkiandrew wrote: post #88
gruez wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's also probably cheaper than the extra physical infrastructure needed for inductive loops, given that all the necessary equipment (phones, GPS, cell infrastructure) is already in place for most people. Assuming the procurement/contracting for said app is done competently, which seems questionable for most governments. Moreover even if it's cheaper, surely some sort of camera/sensor setup would be safer than drive…

The drivers don’t “fiddle with an app”. The apps use geo location to notify the traffic control system when they are near an intersection. https://www.brusselstimes.com/512118/flemish-traffic-lights-... > As soon as a driver approaches an intersection with smart traffic lights, a signal is sent via their app and the cloud to the computer controlling those traffic lights.

And the reason only some maps apps work, is that Apple don't allow a background App to keep running that tracks GPS and reports location over data???

I'm guessing

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