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4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred resignation program

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Re: 4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred resignation program

#591

Post by Wololooo »

fragmede wrote: post #585
godelski wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the world leader in space science. I also want to add that science is a critical investment area for anyone interested in engineering. There is this common belief of "I just want to make things work" and that science is really unimportant here and are concerned with things that don't matter. The truth is that science builds the foundation for that other stuff. It is the very ground you stand on. Engineering without…

I don't know that this is a good argument for science. We should fund science because we want to discover new things, not because we can draw a dotted line to an ROI. Similarly, we should fund the department of giving poor people money for food. Not because there's an ROI somewhere down the line. There's never gonna be a return on that investment, but we should do that because we're humans and we want to lift our fel…

Even if I agree with you, the problem is that we always need to justify our existence as researchers and this is even more difficult if the field or ideas are more exotic...

With the US becoming a fascist state in record time, I do not foresee people following your thinking, unfortunately...

Re: 4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred resignation program

#592

Post by candu »

eru wrote: post #545
godelski wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the world leader in space science. I also want to add that science is a critical investment area for anyone interested in engineering. There is this common belief of "I just want to make things work" and that science is really unimportant here and are concerned with things that don't matter. The truth is that science builds the foundation for that other stuff. It is the very ground you stand on. Engineering without…

> The truth is that science builds the foundation for that other stuff. It is the very ground you stand on. Engineering without science is like trying to run without ground. That doesn't mean that government investment in science is necessarily a good idea. > I'd be willing to wager that the economic impact of Newton and Leibniz's invention of Calculus[0] is larger than the economic impact of any engineering product,…

Government investment in science is...the only way basic science happens, really. I'd recommend reading The Entrepreneurial State [1] here: in essence, basic science pays off too slowly to interest even the most deeply-pocketed capital interests, but it pays off, so wise societies invest in it; Silicon Valley owes its existence to massive formative public investments in underlying technologies.

Not to mention that smart people generally prefer to live in places that value and protect science, so it's _also_ an indirect form of geopolitical talent recruitment. (See brain drain + brain gain impacts of science policy, for instance. There's a strong argument to be made that US mid-20th-century dominance in science and engineering was largely driven by a lot of very smart people fleeing Nazi Germany.)

Basic science isn't so much a lottery ticket as a bond with unknown maturity measured in decades, a _very_ high rate of return, a high minimum investment, and dividend-like payouts created by adding skilled scientists, engineers, etc. to your tax base.

[1] https://marianamazzucato.com/books/the-entrepreneurial-state...

Re: 4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred resignation program

#593

Post by giantg2 »

nothercastle wrote: post #573
giantg2 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government employees have been getting COLAs. It just appears that the private sector has been giving larger increases and is subject to more competition. For example, as a developer you can job hop or negotiate raises in the private sector, but that doesn’t work in the public sector. I think inflation and wage growth in the covid era hit this especially hard. Why would I want to deal with DMV customers all day for $…

Also the high cost of living areas jobs don’t adjust appropriately for costs in the local areas. A post office job in the city pays almost as much as one in the middle of nowhere but the costs are radically different

They do some adjustment for region and specific location. I'm not sure if it's enough.

Re: 4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred resignation program

#594

Post by msgodel »

throwawayq3423 wrote: post #515
msgodel wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>that money is better spent giving folks like me a tax cut The federal government now accepts donations if you don't want the money.

The current government would take any money you give them and give it back to rich people in the form of tax cuts. So no, I don't want to Venmo cash to somebody who doesn't need it.

That has always effectively been how government programs work, even if they launder it through poor people and immigrants first.

Re: 4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred resignation program

#595

Post by const_cast »

aerostable_slug wrote: post #522
const_cast wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No It's not. The pay, job per job, is significantly lower across the public sector. You take a massive pay-cut. I don't know what lied to you and told you it's "cushy", but it's definitely not. Also, you can absolutely be fired for performance. In fact, across the public sector probationary periods are typically longer than in the private sector. Meaning, it's actually easier for you to get fired. These are the types…

I've worked in government. Have you?

So? You're one of millions, and many people are ideologically opposed to the public sector. Obviously, I cannot trust you, so I won't.

What I've said isn't up for debate, it's just true. If you find yourself disagreeing, please feel free to look up salaries and probationary periods. You will see you are incorrect. From there, you can decide whether to change your mind or continue to believe in lies.

Re: 4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred resignation program

#596

Post by interactivecode »

ponector wrote: post #588
maxloh wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that people wanted to stay in their own country. However, she could likely get a good position in the space industry in Europe. The bottom line is, she would be very likely to get a good salary, even better than she did in the US, in China, Russia, or India, which are desperately seeking space specialists with experience in more advanced technologies. It is a shame that the US couldn't even keep their payroll,…

>> in the space industry in Europe I bet they are not willing to take a huge paycut. Also the language barrier may be an issue.

It's quite easy to learn proper English if you're American. I have friends who successfully accomplished the feat

Re: 4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred resignation program

#597

Post by monkeyelite »

optimalsolver wrote: post #317
monkeyelite wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t a criticism of democracy that individuals vote for their immediate benefit (MY job, MY housing) with no consideration of longer term consequences?

I suppose they're involuntarily practicing a high form of civic virtue, although that doesn't pay off the mortgage.

I didn’t say anything about virtue. You’re probably right that they didn’t fully anticipate changes.

But what bothers me is that hypocrisy accusation avoids making a claim about what would actually be a good or bad policy.

Do you want federal cut backs or not?

Re: 4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred resignation program

#598

Post by spicyusername »

indy wrote: post #21
spicyusername wrote: post #4

Wow, that's terrible news... I just don't understand why this is something people would want.

Because a lot of people believe that large government institutions are nothing more than job programs for voters of Democrats. The image is that for every scientist at Nasa there are countless administrators, HR ladies and diversity hires

That's a very cynical and ignorant image...

Re: 4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred resignation program

#599

Post by optimalsolver »

monkeyelite wrote: post #597
optimalsolver wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose they're involuntarily practicing a high form of civic virtue, although that doesn't pay off the mortgage.

I didn’t say anything about virtue. You’re probably right that they didn’t fully anticipate changes. But what bothers me is that hypocrisy accusation avoids making a claim about what would actually be a good or bad policy. Do you want federal cut backs or not?

>Do you want federal cut backs or not?

The right-leaning people caught up in this would probably say "Yes, but not in my obviously highly efficient division."

Re: 4k NASA employees opt to leave agency through deferred resignation program

#600

Post by watwut »

godelski wrote: post #587
watwut wrote: post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sanewashing would be better word ... it is kneed jerk tendency with anything republicans and especially Trump related. Even when what they do is clearly crap, people find ways to rationalize it and make it sound better then it is. Sometimes better amounts to "still bad" as in here, but it is still a bunch of claims that make Conservatives lead by Trump sound much better then what they actually are.

And you don't think understanding how people delude themselves is good to 1) convince them 2) not fall prone to the same traps? I'm not excusing anyone. But you are picking fights with people on your own team. So maybe pay closer attention to what people say and not just signaling. Personally I want to fix things, not pick random needless fights. I want to stop chaos, not create more. Picking fights is just what Trum…

> And you don't think understanding how people delude themselves is good to 1) convince them 2) not fall prone to the same traps?

I think that if you project wrong motivations on them, you wont understand how they "deluded" themselves nor prevent yourself to fall for the same trap. If their motivation is "scientists are liberals and I want to hurt them" or "I want actually Christian conservative religious state and these institutions are threat to that goal", no amount of theorizing about money saving will get you to the understanding.

If you want to start with understanding someone's motivation, you can not start by projecting best most palatable motivations on them. Nor should you start be projecting worst ones ... but that is NOT where we are or were for years.

For years, conservatives and especially Trump had best possible motivations projected on them. And it only served to their benefit. The whole center ended up not believing their goals, even as they stated or wrote about them regularly. The whole center was busy policing those who actually listened to conservatives and very accurately predicted what they will do. Again and again.

> Personally I want to fix things, not pick random needless fights. I want to stop chaos, not create more.

You are not stopping the chaos by making what is going on more palatable by sane washing it. It just empowers the chaos.

> Picking fights is just what Trump wants you to do

No, Trump want us all to act like republicans do. Never argue with him, enable enable enable. Praise him and kiss his behind.

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