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The Next Step in Apple's Thermonuclear War Against Android

groklaw.net

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Re: The Next Step in Apple's Thermonuclear War Against Android

#91
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of them are solved by sandboxing and permission mechanism. "Fuck you, I don't want to waste my time" is actually the response developers should be giving to Apple when they are made to wait more than a month for their app to be reviewed and finally it gets rejected for a political, ideological, arbitrary, or personal (competes with an Apple service) reason.

Whilst you are technically correct, I don't think this is what most people would have in mind when they are thinking of "open" systems. Have a think about the types of application that are trotted out when people want to point out the advantages of open android : a) new virtual keyboards - not possible with sandboxing b) new launcher screens - not possible with sandboxing c) access to data from other apps - not possi…

Did you ever stop to think that, despite this being a potential problem, why it has not been a problem?

Android isn't an immature product. google have activated something like 300 million devices. 300 million opportunities for your theoretical issue to manifest and yet it hasn't.

Re: The Next Step in Apple's Thermonuclear War Against Android

#92

They ask themselves why Apple went for Samsung's head. It's pretty obvious... they don't want an Apple vs. Google. It's much easier to win vs Samsung (a foreign company, by the way) and thus establish some valuable jurisprudence. Google was recently said to be getting ready to sue Apple, it's only natural because Apple's target was always Google and it's now only a matter of time before we get to that. It's a bit lik…

> It would have been Russia if it hadn't been Germany.

You are technically correct - Germany invaded Poland first. But German and Soviet invasions of Poland were just 18 days apart: 1 September and 17 September 1939. All according to Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact [1] signed shortly before that - on 23 August 1939.

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact

Re: The Next Step in Apple's Thermonuclear War Against Android

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst you are technically correct, I don't think this is what most people would have in mind when they are thinking of "open" systems. Have a think about the types of application that are trotted out when people want to point out the advantages of open android : a) new virtual keyboards - not possible with sandboxing b) new launcher screens - not possible with sandboxing c) access to data from other apps - not possi…

Did you ever stop to think that, despite this being a potential problem, why it has not been a problem? Android isn't an immature product. google have activated something like 300 million devices. 300 million opportunities for your theoretical issue to manifest and yet it hasn't.

No, of course I didn't stop to think, that would just be a waste of my time - much better to just send off a response without any thought what so ever...

Of course, back in reality, I do actually know someone that installed Swype on their Android phone, didn't like it, and couldn't figure how to get back to the default keyboard, so I don't know why you think these types of problems aren't already cropping up in the Android world.

Re: The Next Step in Apple's Thermonuclear War Against Android

#94

Does anyone see groklaw as a credible source any more? They used to have good reporting, but all I've seen since the Apple v Samsung verdict is spittle-flecked ranting.

Funny. The last time you were criticizing groklaw here, you preferred Florian's analysis of the Oracle case as more impartial and accurate.

Re: The Next Step in Apple's Thermonuclear War Against Android

#95

I'd love to see control of the "mobile space" be in the hands of individuals instead of large, for-profit and often evil companies. Clearly mobile computing is here to stay. If it wasn't then companies like apple and google wouldn't be fighting so hard for control. Imagine a decentralized app store where people can make a living without having to deal with apple's ridiculous review process or ideas of what's appropri…

> Imagine a decentralized app store where people can make a living without having to deal with apple's ridiculous review process or ideas of what's appropriate. So far, "freedom of App Store speech" and money don't seem to be correlated at all. (Or all the millionaires on OpenMoko and Cydia are being quiet to prevent a gold rush on their turf.) I think the only instance where Apple's guidelines are prohibitive to mak…

There is no platform on the planet that could get away with exerting absolute control over what can be published on that platform except Apple. People can and do rationalize it but to subject yourself to an eco-system where your entire experience is subject to Apple's totalitarian control is creepy.

Re: The Next Step in Apple's Thermonuclear War Against Android

#96

Does anyone see groklaw as a credible source any more? They used to have good reporting, but all I've seen since the Apple v Samsung verdict is spittle-flecked ranting.

Groklaw is dead on. Apple's grotesque abuse of our legal system as a weapon to destroy their competition is wicked (the bad kind).

Re: The Next Step in Apple's Thermonuclear War Against Android

#97
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the thing: It doesn't really matter. Take any given software patent and throw a research team at it, chances are you'll find invalidating prior art. Take any given software patent and give it to a CS major, chances are you'll have a work-around inside of a few days. But that's not the problem. The problem is that you never know which patents will be asserted against you, and by that point the horse is out of t…

I think there is a middle ground - patents, if done "properly" is useful. Perhaps, firstly, you have to have a more vigorous application process that is peer reviewed (where peers are basically your competitors!). Secondly, you have to declare the valuation of the patent. This is then taxed by the government, similarly to property tax. If you decide to value your patent at $0, then you pay $0 tax. The valuation of th…

>Secondly, you have to declare the valuation of the patent. This is then taxed by the government, similarly to property tax. If you decide to value your patent at $0, then you pay $0 tax. >The valuation of the patent determines the damage payment.

This sounds more clever than it actually is. Think about it:

First of all, this makes the patent system totally worthless to the little guy. If Joe Inventor has the Billion Dollar Idea, he can't value it at a billion dollars even if it is worth that much because the first year's taxes would bankrupt him before he can recoup the money. But if he values it at substantially less than that, the big guys come along and infringe and just pay damages that are way less than the value of infringing.

But you can't allow the patent holder to periodically revalue the patent and change the amount of tax being paid on it because that breaks the system, since the big guys could just value all their patents at $0 until they see someone infringing, then revalue them at a trillion dollars the day before they file the lawsuit.

And the alternative of not allowing revaluation ignores what a crap shoot patents are. Sometimes you don't know that something is going to take off until it does. If you have five or ten genuinely good ideas but can only expect one or two to gain market acceptance, and you don't know which ones at the time of filing, you can't value them all at a billion dollars or you'll be crushed by taxes, but if you value the wrong ones highly then the patent system isn't providing you with the desired incentive because when the infringers come around you won't be able to collect sufficient damages to deter them.

More than that, think about what you would be doing to patent litigation: Valuing an individual software patent at a billion dollars is insane for anyone because of the taxes that would be due on it and because of the potential of someone finding a work-around that makes that valuation worthless, so instead the strategy (much like today) will be to collect many thousands of patents, valued in the low millions individually, but instead of asserting five or ten in litigation, plaintiffs will have to assert a much larger number of them in order to arrive at the desired amount of damages. These trials are a giant mass of spaghetti even with five or ten patents, can you imagine a hundred? So it does nothing to solve the problem of upstanding defendants being coerced into unjust settlements for fear of being crushed by litigation costs.

So the taxes thing is not really going to do it I don't think. (And that's before the Tea Party gets a billion dollar donation from Intellectual Ventures to go on TV and scream about taxes on innovators, and before the tax provision gets eaten by all the same loopholes that allow Microsoft to not pay income tax.)

Which leaves the suggestion that we need a more rigorous vetting of patents -- and I'm all for that, but easier said than done. Peer review probably wouldn't hurt, but you've got a serious free rider problem. If IBM files for a spurious patent then in theory Google and Microsoft each have an incentive to hire lawyers and try to oppose their application, but they also have an incentive to save money by letting their other competitors do it. And because patents are bought and sold like commodities, you can't just concentrate on fighting your own competitors' attempts to get bad patents, because anyone who is awarded a low quality patent is a potential supplier of them to your competitors, so anyone who decides they want to subsidize their competitors by being the first to start policing bad patents in the industry will have to do so against the world rather than only their own actual competitors. You end up with a situation where nobody wants to be the first mover to start opposing competitors' patents because there will inevitably be retaliation, so nobody does, and all the big players are happier to continue the existing system of everyone big having an arsenal of low quality patents that in most cases just get cross-licensed to one another.

It seems to me it would be better to just throw out software patents and be done with it. No one can even agree whether the existing or proposed systems would encourage more innovation than they impede, but no one can dispute that any system of software patents involves the employment of a large army of soul-crushing patent lawyers with engineering degrees who the world would be better off if they were set to work doing actual engineering instead.

Re: The Next Step in Apple's Thermonuclear War Against Android

#98
post #66

I'd love to see control of the "mobile space" be in the hands of individuals instead of large, for-profit and often evil companies. Clearly mobile computing is here to stay. If it wasn't then companies like apple and google wouldn't be fighting so hard for control. Imagine a decentralized app store where people can make a living without having to deal with apple's ridiculous review process or ideas of what's appropri…

> Imagine a decentralized app store where people can make a living without having to deal with apple's ridiculous review process or ideas of what's appropriate. The closest thing we have to that is the web. You can run stores on it completely decentralized, and you can access it from all mobile devices.

I wonder if the "app ecosystem" will move towards paid web services that people use on their mobile devices. I know the whole native vs web app debate has been done to death. Many games probably won't run in mobile browsers in the future. Would be interesting if apple's (and other companies') mis-management of their centralized app stores ultimately incentivized developers to move to the web as the "app store" to the extent that one could make a living.

One data point or trend that seems to support the above idea: The popularity of free apps that are monetized via in-app-purchase. Would be great if the future saw more free web apps monetized via app-in-purchase provided by Stripe or similar.

Re: The Next Step in Apple's Thermonuclear War Against Android

#99
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a middle ground - patents, if done "properly" is useful. Perhaps, firstly, you have to have a more vigorous application process that is peer reviewed (where peers are basically your competitors!). Secondly, you have to declare the valuation of the patent. This is then taxed by the government, similarly to property tax. If you decide to value your patent at $0, then you pay $0 tax. The valuation of th…

>Secondly, you have to declare the valuation of the patent. This is then taxed by the government, similarly to property tax. If you decide to value your patent at $0, then you pay $0 tax. >The valuation of the patent determines the damage payment. This sounds more clever than it actually is. Think about it: First of all, this makes the patent system totally worthless to the little guy. If Joe Inventor has the Billion…

A well thought out reply, and i agree with the problems you have stated. Good point about the first corp that moves to peer review their competitor's patent application in order to prevent them from getting it. I hadn't thought about how they might collude.

So may be there isn't a proper solution, because the premise is that the idea of patents is flawed?

Re: The Next Step in Apple's Thermonuclear War Against Android

#100
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Secondly, you have to declare the valuation of the patent. This is then taxed by the government, similarly to property tax. If you decide to value your patent at $0, then you pay $0 tax. >The valuation of the patent determines the damage payment. This sounds more clever than it actually is. Think about it: First of all, this makes the patent system totally worthless to the little guy. If Joe Inventor has the Billion…

A well thought out reply, and i agree with the problems you have stated. Good point about the first corp that moves to peer review their competitor's patent application in order to prevent them from getting it. I hadn't thought about how they might collude. So may be there isn't a proper solution, because the premise is that the idea of patents is flawed?

>So may be there isn't a proper solution, because the premise is that the idea of patents is flawed?

I don't think the idea of patents is flawed. They work well in certain industries (namely pharmaceuticals). The problem is that the patent system was never designed to cover intangible goods. The idea that one single device can simultaneously infringe tens of thousands of separate patents is an abomination.

That leaves the problem of how to exclude software from patentability without causing problems for Pfizer and General Electric, but I think that's coming at it from the wrong end. Never mind what you can get a patent to cover or not, just make intangible goods incapable of patent infringement. Pass a law that says that if all you're doing is distributing bits or executing a program on a general purpose computer, you can't be liable for patent infringement whatsoever. That should have no effect on the makers of cholesterol medication and jet turbines while solving the problem for software developers.

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