When we get Komooted • Hacker News Board

Re: When we get Komooted

#151

Post by izacus » Sun, Jul 27, 2025, 1:36 PM UTC

dakiol wrote: post #35

> Komoot, to them, was more than a job; it was a mission and purpose. Many had accepted below-average salaries and uprooted their lives to commit to the outdoor lifestyle and the dream job. Suddenly, they were left scrambling for new work and visa sponsors with just a few months’ pay as severance. The six bosses, meanwhile, pocketed an estimated 20 to 30 million euros each. That’s why, and call me unethical, I never…

This is the approach that most workers took in our eastern European countries during socialist era.

It was shitty. Pretty much all services were terrible since people just did the minumum.

I've noticed US going down this path for a few years now and I can't figure out why in the frigging world would you cheer on towards such horrible society.

All the best places I've lived at were great because people cared about the jobs and other work they did.

Re: When we get Komooted

#152

Post by hansvm » Sun, Jul 27, 2025, 1:39 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #124

bjackman wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be in case 1 and find meaning in what you do. That's where the blacksmith is. There's absolutely nothing wrong with doing a good job for 40 hours a week in return for a salary. Being a competent professional who does quality work is rewarding! I just think if you're doing work of that nature (which _most of us are_, BTW) you need to recognise it for what it is. Don't burn yourself out trying to squeeze every…

At the same time we can maaaaaaaybe start pushing back on all of the "capitalism is not the problem" and "capitalism is the least worst of all available options" memes? Or is it too soon already?

The problem with capitalism is that something like it (concentrated power begetting additional power at the expense of most of the populace) is nearly guaranteed to crop up in a society which doesn't burn resources actively fighting against it. When fishing for alternatives then, you have to consider:

1. What fraction of our resources do we want to burn while eliminating which of the worst parts of capitalistic tendencies?

2. How do we preserve diffuse power distributions in the face of actors who will actively work against that goal?

Not to trivialize it too much, (1) is just a policy decision. Being completely hands-off is probably sub-optimal. Burning 100% of resources fighting fraud and other abuses isn't ideal either. It's a reasonable framing though for comparing strategies. There's no free lunch, so if somebody sells you a governmental structure which eliminates the worst parts of capitalism without _some_ cost, it's likely snake oil.

Point (2) is the harder one. The majority of people wouldn't mind a little extra power and a few extra resources. If that's possible, it's also (usually) possible to create sub-populations which together have much more power than other groups and thus subvert the goals of your anti-capitalist strategy. How do you create a system that's robust against most individual participants (potentially inadvertently) working against it?

So, sure, let's do away with capitalism. What do you replace it with that's both better and won't revert back?

Re: When we get Komooted

#153

Post by pydry » Sun, Jul 27, 2025, 1:46 PM UTC

hansvm wrote: post #152

pydry wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time we can maaaaaaaybe start pushing back on all of the "capitalism is not the problem" and "capitalism is the least worst of all available options" memes? Or is it too soon already?

The problem with capitalism is that something like it (concentrated power begetting additional power at the expense of most of the populace) is nearly guaranteed to crop up in a society which doesn't burn resources actively fighting against it. When fishing for alternatives then, you have to consider: 1. What fraction of our resources do we want to burn while eliminating which of the worst parts of capitalistic tende…

This isnt really about using "resources" to fight fraud. None of this was illegal and it was all very profitable - it was encouraged.

This is about us consenting to capital being put at the very heart of society's locus of control, which is what drove this kind of parasitism to be encouraged rather than discouraged.

It is a unique feature of western (especially American) society - something which actually isnt represented in other power centers.

China has "private equity" for instance, but it's not really private - it operates like all financial institutions as an arm of the state (not run by capital) and has no real incentive to destroy healthy and valuable companies for profit.

Re: When we get Komooted

#154

Post by dfc » Sun, Jul 27, 2025, 1:49 PM UTC

bakuninsbart wrote: post #148

akdor1154 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A job this week is no guarantee, legally or practically, of a job next week. It is in Europe - one or three months are the standard notice periods I believe?

Germany has a 6 month probation period for new hires in which both sides can terminate the contract with 2 week notice. After that, it is one month, two months after 3 years going up to 7 months after 20 years.

Hiring senior employees sounds like it requires crystal ball level planning. Are there any tricks to make growth easier?

Re: When we get Komooted

#155

Post by greenpenguin » Sun, Jul 27, 2025, 1:53 PM UTC

thomasahle wrote: post #43

Other than entirely community-driven projects (like https://wanderer.to/ mentioned in the article), are there company "forms" that legally protect against this kind of sell-out? Like non-profit or public-benefit-corporation? If users are contributing the content of the app, it seems they should have a way to hold the owners accountable.

In the UK a CIC (Community Interest Company) is an option, which can legally oblige the company to act in the interest of "the community they serve". I think in the USA a benefit corporation might be similar.

Alternatively if Komoot was a worker co-op a sell-out would only be possible with consent from the employees. Consumer co-ops (where users can vote too) are also an option but with more caveats.

Re: When we get Komooted

#156

Post by Towaway69 » Sun, Jul 27, 2025, 1:53 PM UTC

awjlogan wrote: post #137

Do users share some “responsibility” (for want of a better word) as well? If people were happy to share their experiences to personal, or at least smaller, groups rather than with some implicit desire to be widely acknowledged then a portion are of the use of these platforms would not exist. Keep a blog of your routes, shared with your friends - others can stumble upon it (obviously less easily these days) - or even…

Users are humans, you might as well say do humans share some responsibility.

As a user, nothing much will probably change. You will still be able to share your personal data with the world.

It’s a little overreaching to say because users did this , they are responsible for making the company popular and then getting sold off to a make money for the founders and then these users are responsible for the blight of the employees (who were also “users” probably).

Re: When we get Komooted

#157

Post by twixfel » Sun, Jul 27, 2025, 2:02 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #151

dakiol wrote: post #35

> Komoot, to them, was more than a job; it was a mission and purpose. Many had accepted below-average salaries and uprooted their lives to commit to the outdoor lifestyle and the dream job. Suddenly, they were left scrambling for new work and visa sponsors with just a few months’ pay as severance. The six bosses, meanwhile, pocketed an estimated 20 to 30 million euros each. That’s why, and call me unethical, I never…

This is the approach that most workers took in our eastern European countries during socialist era. It was shitty. Pretty much all services were terrible since people just did the minumum. I've noticed US going down this path for a few years now and I can't figure out why in the frigging world would you cheer on towards such horrible society. All the best places I've lived at were great because people cared about the…

There’s nothing wrong with caring about your job and what you do. Just don’t buy into any of the horse shit about missions and so on. The bosses are ruthlessly capitalist so it’s immoral to expect the workers to be any less self interested.

Re: When we get Komooted

#158

Post by dzink » Sun, Jul 27, 2025, 2:02 PM UTC

hermitcrab wrote: post #141

dzink wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the 80s the abuse was concentrated in the management layer of companies - executives would store cash and buy private jets and lavish properties for the “company” leadership to enjoy. Private equity trimmed that fat at the time.

But presumably all that fat instead went to the private equity company instead?

Public investors have an expectation of not losing their money. Thus public companies have to have either expectation of growth or strong cash flow to feed dividends. If a company has neither of those, Private Equity either turns it around or sells it for parts. They are the vultures of the business world. They buy the company with debt that its cash flows are supposed to pay back, and profit from the tax deduction on the debt and whatever is left in the end. A company is a machine where you put in 1 dollar and it comes back with more than 1. Employees get paid with steady reliable income called salary before investors do until the machine runs out. By law the board has to pay payroll if the employees are not compensated, or the board is personally liable for the salaries. They also have an inside view with how the company is doing better than any investor. They can and will bail when something goes funky. Any equity over is the perk of taking risk by investing in the company. The stress of wondering whether you will make payroll or have a business left after you have worked so hard to create and sweat so hard to work it is so deep that few would take it on - thus you have to give them proportionate carrot to look forward to or there would be no jobs.

Re: When we get Komooted

#159

Post by Towaway69 » Sun, Jul 27, 2025, 2:04 PM UTC

renox wrote: post #132

navane wrote: post #107

The users were always the real service provider. All the value is in what they tell each other through their data. All Komoot does is aggregate it, supply the infra structure. The only way to stop owners pulling the rug underneath all this community given content is by keeping the content open source. Promise the users you will do best with their data by keeping it out in the open so that if you don't, someone else w…

> Unfortunately this is another "if we all just" solution that humanity seems unable to do Not all the time, see the success of GPL software. But yes, each community has to relearn the lesson: promises don't matter what matter is whether the data are 'open' or not.

Thanks to the GPL and open source software movement, we have these hype-capitalist FAANG corporations that reduce everything down to making a profit as fast as possible - or just dump it.

No long term goals, no guarantees for users, no job security, no ownership in a renters economy. Just take the data and make as much money with it as possible.

But that’s just one interpretation, perhaps it will have a happy end. If not, I’m sure there will be an app to fix it.

Re: When we get Komooted

#160

Post by sneak » Sun, Jul 27, 2025, 2:06 PM UTC

jodrellblank wrote: post #106

nradov wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Why do people with families to feed and 20-30 year mortgages desire more than a week of job stability when it can take months to find work again? Is this a serious question?

Yes, absolutely. If you have a family and a mortgage without first having enough savings to support those things through anomalies, you’re acting irresponsibly.

Nobody should be expecting their employer (or any second party, really) to be their income stream’s low pass filter. That’s what your savings account is for.

If you can’t support your family and mortgage through 6-9 months (minimum) out of savings, you shouldn’t have them because you can’t afford them.

(Also, mortgage term is irrelevant here, I’m not sure why you mention it. I would venture a guess that most 30 year mortgages end by being paid off at sale in less than 30 years. A 30 year mortgage doesn’t mean 30 years of mandatory payments, you can sell the place and move and pay off the mortgage at any time.)