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Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

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Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#21

Post by ysavir »

hagbard_c wrote: post #9
owenthejumper wrote: post #5

It's incredible how much damage we have done to ourselves in the past 250 years, and how much effort do we now need to spend to undo that damage

It's incredible how much good we have done to ourselves in the past 250 years, and how much good we can do in the now and the future.

Downvoted as this comment feels like it's trying to be witty/upshowing the parent comment without actually engaging with it or offering anything of substance. If the comment was along the lines of "yes, but we've also done a lot of good, let's reflect on both", great. But that's not what it was. Instead it feels like a statement that's trying to argue with the parent comment despite the parent comment never saying we haven't done any good.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#22

Post by scott_w »

bhaak wrote: post #16
plemer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I find your counter argument vague, it did prompt me to dig in and find that human hunting is arguably still the bigger suppressor of elk population. However, that’s been going on since the ‘40s. The reintroduction of wolves is associated with an immediate, steady, and durable decline in elk - i.e. pushed the ecosystem past an inflection point into a new equilibrium.

It’s also possible that wolves hunt in a different way than humans, or different types (regarding age, gender, or health maybe) of elks. It’s an interesting question and this could be empirically tested if human hunting would be slowly reduced.

That’s a good point: hunters probably prefer strong elk but wolves prefer weak elk. I recall going to a walking with wolves experience in the Lake District where she explained that predators strengthen their prey by removing sick and those with genetic issues from the gene pool.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#23

Post by mkw5053 »

It's amazing the impact that the reintroduction has had. On a recent winter trip there I also learned that the reintroduction literally moved rivers [1]:

- Elk quit loitering along streams, so willow and cottonwood shot up, anchoring soil and narrowing channels.

- The new woody growth gave beavers lumber; their colonies jumped from one in 1996 to a dozen within fifteen years, raising water tables and rebuilding wetlands.

- With healthier riparian zones came deeper pools, colder water, and a surge in native trout and song-bird nests.

[1] https://phys.org/news/2025-02-predators-ecosystems-yellowsto...

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#24

Post by mc32 »

hagbard_c wrote: post #9
owenthejumper wrote: post #5

It's incredible how much damage we have done to ourselves in the past 250 years, and how much effort do we now need to spend to undo that damage

It's incredible how much good we have done to ourselves in the past 250 years, and how much good we can do in the now and the future.

It’s is! Just in medicine alone. And then economically, as well as justice. From 98% of the people living in abject poverty, no pairs of shoes, two changes of clothes, selling off relatives for money, dying from simple infections… to where we are today. It’s like the glory days of Rome but much better.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#25

Post by specialist »

bhaak wrote: post #16
plemer wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I find your counter argument vague, it did prompt me to dig in and find that human hunting is arguably still the bigger suppressor of elk population. However, that’s been going on since the ‘40s. The reintroduction of wolves is associated with an immediate, steady, and durable decline in elk - i.e. pushed the ecosystem past an inflection point into a new equilibrium.

It’s also possible that wolves hunt in a different way than humans, or different types (regarding age, gender, or health maybe) of elks. It’s an interesting question and this could be empirically tested if human hunting would be slowly reduced.

IIRC:

Without risk of harm, elk and deer linger near water. This tramples the shoreline. And they love eating noshing on (aspen) saplings. Over time, the shorelines become barren.

With the reintroduction of wolves, shorelines are no longer safe havens. Aspens have returned. With aspens, song birds have returned. Trees shade the water (eg streams), so fish are happier. Trees stabilize the top soil, reducing erosion, allows other plants to become reestablished.

I dimly recall beavers returned too.

--

Aha. I was mostly right (or hallucinating). Here's perplexity link for "impact of return of wolves to yellowstone".

https://www.perplexity.ai/search/impact-of-return-of-wolves-...

I learned about the birds returning because of the wolves while volunteering at Audubon. That linked summary doesn't go into those details.

--

Update: I should've read the OC first. My bad. TIL: (too many) bison also negatively impact riverbanks. I had thought (misremembered) that overall impact of bison was positive. Does Yellowstone need more cougars?

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#26

Post by rgreek42 »

hagbard_c wrote: post #9
owenthejumper wrote: post #5

It's incredible how much damage we have done to ourselves in the past 250 years, and how much effort do we now need to spend to undo that damage

It's incredible how much good we have done to ourselves in the past 250 years, and how much good we can do in the now and the future.

Surely this is the best of all possible worlds, Dr. Pangloss.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#28

Post by bluGill »

ysavir wrote: post #21
hagbard_c wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's incredible how much good we have done to ourselves in the past 250 years, and how much good we can do in the now and the future.

Downvoted as this comment feels like it's trying to be witty/upshowing the parent comment without actually engaging with it or offering anything of substance. If the comment was along the lines of "yes, but we've also done a lot of good, let's reflect on both", great. But that's not what it was. Instead it feels like a statement that's trying to argue with the parent comment despite the parent comment never saying we…

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

regaurdless of what was intended your downvote and reply shows a lack of good faith.

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#29

Post by sushibowl »

mkw5053 wrote: post #23

It's amazing the impact that the reintroduction has had. On a recent winter trip there I also learned that the reintroduction literally moved rivers [1]: - Elk quit loitering along streams, so willow and cottonwood shot up, anchoring soil and narrowing channels. - The new woody growth gave beavers lumber; their colonies jumped from one in 1996 to a dozen within fifteen years, raising water tables and rebuilding wetla…

As far as I know, the science on this is far from settled. There is no consensus and the evidence in favor of a trophic cascade in Yellowstone came predominantly from two studies done by the same team/person. Later studies failed to replicate findings.

Do wolves fix ecosystems? CSU study debunks claims about Yellowstone reintroduction

https://eu.coloradoan.com/story/news/2024/02/09/colorado-sta...

A good story: Media bias in trophic cascade research in Yellowstone National Park

https://academic.oup.com/book/26688/chapter-abstract/1954809...

Re: Return of wolves to Yellowstone has led to a surge in aspen trees

#30

Post by jebarker »

atentaten wrote: post #10

How does returning wolves to ecosystem effect the mountain lion population? Can we balance things out or are we shuffling problems around?

Im speculating, but mountain lions were probably doing fine before the early 1800s too so they likely just balance each other out naturally if there’s competition over the same prey. I doubt humans need to do anything.
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