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The UK’s new age-gating rules are easy to bypass

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Re: The UK’s new age-gating rules are easy to bypass

#161
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, you'll have to prove to me that weapons, porn, sex exploitation, and drugs like OxyContin aren't issues in the US, then we can keep talking. No, I don't actually. Why not? Two major reasons: 1. You cannot naively equate things for free. You cannot claim porn is like narcotics without proving that first. I simply do not need to prove narcotics are good to show porn is fine. 2. When it comes to rights, we neve…

You said there are no sex workers or people paying for sex in the US. I said, prove it. You can't because you're just talking nonsense. > because these people barely exist in the US. I've never seen them, I've never seen anyone who's seen them

> You said there are no sex workers or people paying for sex in the US. I said, prove it. You can't because you're just talking nonsense.

Well, that's not what I said, it appears you're trying to be dishonest.

You said there's people who "spend all their money" on porn and that daughters are increasingly becoming sex workers. I said this is rare, which is true.

What you're trying to do is say porn is bad by appealing to a worst case scenario. It's a common argumentative tactic people who don't really know how to argue use.

For example, cars are bad because people fly through windshields and paint the freeway with their brains. This is true, and does happen, but without a qualifier for how often it happens, it's worthless. This statement says absolutely nothing about how good or bad cars are.

But, to be clear, even if it did, that alone would not be enough to sacrifice any and all privacy and security. See, the problem here is you're making multiple levels of arguments, of which you cannot even justify the lowest level.

Making the argument that porn is bad is one argument, making the argument that this means we should sacrifice privacy or security is another argument, and a much more difficult one. You haven't even proved the more fundamental argument, so certainly you're a long way away from proving the more stringent one.

Re: The UK’s new age-gating rules are easy to bypass

#162
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whilst I appreciate your point, I'm not sure the analogy works. Your 'book' (website) is being deployed from your warehouse (web server) and you could chose to not deliver to the customer (the client web browser) based on their location, because of local (to the customer) laws that ban the book. I think it'd be difficult to argue against that unless someone else was a proxy middleman during the delivery of the book (…

Your analogy falls flat because they have to connect to the website, not the other way around. You can't argue that someone requesting access to a page is the same as delivering a book into their borders. They can choose to block access but the website doesn't operate there or owe them anything. They choose to be apart of the connected network, no one forces them.

> Your analogy falls flat because they have to connect to the website, not the other way around

It’s not my analogy, I’m just running with it ;)

But to run with it more: connecting to the website is analogous to an order. Like a person ordering a book or a patron ordering a drink at a bar. The bartender must ask for ID if they suspect the person is not of age.

If a book was illegal in a location then I think it could be argued that delivering it to the location could be akin to smuggling contraband. So I don’t think your reasoning gets you off criminal liability.

By the way, this is all academic. These laws won’t be enforced. It’s all nonsense. There’ll be some public knuckle wraps for the big providers, but that’ll be it.

If you’re a business that falls foul of the laws, you should still adhere to them. But if you’re a small, self hosted site, nothing will happen. The uk police have no resource for something like this and so unless you’re completely egregious, I think it’s not worth worrying about.

Re: The UK’s new age-gating rules are easy to bypass

#163
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analogy falls flat because they have to connect to the website, not the other way around. You can't argue that someone requesting access to a page is the same as delivering a book into their borders. They can choose to block access but the website doesn't operate there or owe them anything. They choose to be apart of the connected network, no one forces them.

> Your analogy falls flat because they have to connect to the website, not the other way around It’s not my analogy, I’m just running with it ;) But to run with it more: connecting to the website is analogous to an order. Like a person ordering a book or a patron ordering a drink at a bar. The bartender must ask for ID if they suspect the person is not of age. If a book was illegal in a location then I think it could…

A website in the US doesn't deliver anything to the UK, it hands off some packets to a router in the US. Why is the website responsible for what all the interconnecting routers do? If a person from the UK were to visit an adult bookstore in the US, the bookstore owner isn't at fault if the customer decides to move certain material across national boundaries.

Re: The UK’s new age-gating rules are easy to bypass

#164
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analogy falls flat because they have to connect to the website, not the other way around. You can't argue that someone requesting access to a page is the same as delivering a book into their borders. They can choose to block access but the website doesn't operate there or owe them anything. They choose to be apart of the connected network, no one forces them.

> Your analogy falls flat because they have to connect to the website, not the other way around It’s not my analogy, I’m just running with it ;) But to run with it more: connecting to the website is analogous to an order. Like a person ordering a book or a patron ordering a drink at a bar. The bartender must ask for ID if they suspect the person is not of age. If a book was illegal in a location then I think it could…

Let's leave the analogy in it's grave. The point is that the responsibility for delivery falls to the provider of the internet service not the proprietor of the content in another country, who is not a business in the country and not subject to it's laws, the isp can ban connectivity to whoever they want to protect themselves from criminal liability. It's like saying the uk can criminally punish anyone for any content on the internet in any country because their citizens accesed it. It's ridiculous.

Agree with the point that it's mostly to extort larger firms who do in fact operate businesses there.

Re: The UK’s new age-gating rules are easy to bypass

#165
post #124
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> surrendering to a foreign government that has no jurisdiction over them is what's new Many countries, including the US, claim jurisdiction if you are providing services to their citizens. Some claim jurisdiction if someone in that country sees your web page (ie you've now "published" it there). You've been blissfully unaware, perhaps, but this has been a thing for a long time. You have probably seen sites having se…

Harmful in which way? Porn addiction is as harmful as gambling, tobacco and alcohol addiction. High school students with phones at school are showing porn to their friends, even younger kids. Some schools have banned phones, but teens aged 12–17 can still access porn sites freely when they get home. In my opinion, gambling sites and porn sites should always verify age, same goes for shops selling tobacco and alcohol.

I don't doubt porn addiction is somewhat harmful to some people (I doubt it is nearly up there with alcohol, which afaik is easily in a class of its own).

I've also had a kid in a London school for the last 9 years, so I'm in the parent whatsapp groups etc, and talk to parents about what should be done.

For a politician, getting parents to agree to "Should we protect kids from harmful material on the internet?" is an easy statement to make, and an easy one for parents to answer. The next steps are the hard ones, which is why enforcement of this legislation was delayed over and over again. This was first legally mandated in 2017! Then delayed, abandoned, delayed, reintroduced, etc. Why? Because getting the implementation right is very hard, and I do not think that this current system will be effective at stopping much harm to consumers of pornography, but I do think it will lead to terrible privacy breaches.

Re: The UK’s new age-gating rules are easy to bypass

#166
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's the possibility that some of the users of these sites voted for these laws and want the verification in place.

Millions of worried parents, perhaps? Parents who are worried about the negative effects of gambling, tobacco, alcohol, and porn?

There are a lot of very advanced software one can use to limit access to those sites, as well as control the time spent online. I think many tablets/phones even have built in parental controls. Why do you think the government should be involved?

Re: The UK’s new age-gating rules are easy to bypass

#167
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Classic case of Wolfenstein 3d being banned in Germany in the 90s rings a bell.

Germany has laws about displaying nazi emblems. The same game design reskinned would be fine.

> The same game design reskinned would be fine.

The same game design reskinned wouldn’t be the same game, though.

I respect the Germans for their decision to pass and enforce their laws in Germany, and to have an opinion about how websites are displayed to German IPs, but I also am sensitive to the artistic intent of id software, while questioning the necessity of making the games in the first place. Nazi symbols are problematic for the same reasons that war movies are: even if you’re trying to make an anti-war or anti-Nazi piece, it still portrays the very same imagery and context in order to subvert it or supplant it. It’s somewhat self-defeating, and it’s fodder for fans of the things creators themselves may oppose to rally around and agitate for or against to raise awareness for their ideology and their support of it.

Ironically, id didn’t even start that franchise, though they did popularize the genre and their own place in it with Wolfenstein 3D.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfenstein

That said, the original stealth based games were loosely based on real events in which Allied forces killed Nazis, so I’m kind of okay with publicizing notable historical instances of Allies defeating Nazis in World War 2 to a point. We’ve probably crossed that point as soon as id made Wolfenstein 3D, if not before that under Muse Software, which curiously disestablished itself after the second game in the franchise before id continued it. I don’t mean to find fault per se but the moment has passed to make these kinds of content in my opinion.

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20140710-can-a-film-be-t...

> “There’s no such thing as an anti-war film,” is a quote often attributed to the late French filmmaker François Truffaut.

Re: The UK’s new age-gating rules are easy to bypass

#168
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of worried parents, perhaps? Parents who are worried about the negative effects of gambling, tobacco, alcohol, and porn?

There are a lot of very advanced software one can use to limit access to those sites, as well as control the time spent online. I think many tablets/phones even have built in parental controls. Why do you think the government should be involved?

In theory, yes. In practice, not really. There's always a billionaire in the US happy to turn a blind eye if it means making more money from porn, even if kids can get around the restrictions. Look at Elon Musk, one of the first things he did after buying Twitter was open the floodgates, letting anyone upload or search for porn without any proper safeguards.

Reddit shows porn to kids too, as long as they tick the "Show mature (18+) content" box. Same with Telegram, Discord, WhatsApp, Facebook, and the rest. The only apps that don't seem to turn a blind eye are Instagram and Snapchat. Epic Games and Roblox also do a great job, both have strong moderation teams and built-in tools to protect younger users. Every company should use them as examples. They’ve shown it's possible to build huge platforms without ignoring the safety of kids online.

Re: The UK’s new age-gating rules are easy to bypass

#169
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany has laws about displaying nazi emblems. The same game design reskinned would be fine.

Right, but the point was there is precedent for laws affecting American operations when distributing software into a jurisdiction.

Regulators are fed up with billionaires in the US turning a blind eye to porn just to make more money off it, even if kids can get around the restrictions. Look at Elon Musk, one of the first things he did after buying Twitter was open the floodgates, letting anyone upload or search for porn without any proper safeguards.

Reddit shows porn to kids too, as long as they tick the "Show mature (18+) content" box. Same with Telegram, Discord, WhatsApp, Facebook, and the rest.

The only apps that don't seem to turn a blind eye are Instagram, TikTok, YouTube and Snapchat. Epic Games and Roblox also do a great job, both have strong moderation teams and built-in tools to protect younger users. Every company should use them as examples. They've shown it's possible to build huge platforms without ignoring the safety of kids online.

Now that the UK forced these reckless billionaires to update their software to comply with the rules, every government should do the same.

Re: The UK’s new age-gating rules are easy to bypass

#170
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Harmful in which way? Porn addiction is as harmful as gambling, tobacco and alcohol addiction. High school students with phones at school are showing porn to their friends, even younger kids. Some schools have banned phones, but teens aged 12–17 can still access porn sites freely when they get home. In my opinion, gambling sites and porn sites should always verify age, same goes for shops selling tobacco and alcohol.

I don't doubt porn addiction is somewhat harmful to some people (I doubt it is nearly up there with alcohol, which afaik is easily in a class of its own). I've also had a kid in a London school for the last 9 years, so I'm in the parent whatsapp groups etc, and talk to parents about what should be done. For a politician, getting parents to agree to "Should we protect kids from harmful material on the internet?" is an…

I'm a teacher in a private high school which allows students to have smartphones. Kids have unlimited access to porn and they circulate it during school hours, and there's not much we can do about it.

AFAIK, the UK forced the big porn tech giants to hide explicit images and videos from the public unless users verify their age. Twitter, Telegram, WhatsApp, Reddit and other companies failed to do that. These US businesses turned a blind eye to porn just to make more money.

I think what the UK is doing is a step in the right direction. It's about holding the billionaires behind these apps accountable for what they show to kids. It won't fix everything, but it will force the big players to change their software. And that's the first step toward making things better.

In my opinion, this should be a universal law: want to gamble, watch porn, smoke or buy alcohol? Show your ID. Simple as that.

> I do not think that this current system will be effective at stopping much harm to consumers of pornography, but I do think it will lead to terrible privacy breaches.

You mean the system that verifies age could get hacked and expose all the IDs people uploaded? Yeah, that's the risk. But we already hand over ID for flights, banks, hotels, etc. The real issue isn't showing ID, it's trusting the people behind these porn sites, which we know cannot be trusted.

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