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Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

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Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#181

Post by norman784 »

notpushkin wrote: post #164
thimabi wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got in this thread with the expectation of seeing a comment like yours, so thank you for that. I think what worries the U.S. more is the likelihood of Pix spreading around the world. It’s such a great public program that I believe many countries will eventually adopt it, or adopt some version of it. In fact, AFAIK some places already have it, like Thailand and Malaysia. Consumers like it because it is widely availa…

> AFAIK some places already have it, like Thailand and Malaysia. Also Vietnam (Napas247), Singapore (PayNow), Philippines (QR Ph), Japan (lots different systems), China (WeChat/Alipay, I think?), Russia (SBP), Belarus (ERIP, in a sense), and the whole of EU (SEPA transfers). One problem is, most of them don’t really work for you if you’re a foreigner. Moreta (YC S24) is doing something in SEA, and I’ve seen another s…

The EU is also now pushing WERO

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment)

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#182

Post by porridgeraisin »

Loughla wrote: post #154
55555 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in Thailand. Fraud is a much smaller issue because it’s a push-based system. You cannot withdrawal from someone else’s account just by knowing the number, unlike with credit cards.

What about fighting charges? In the US, if I flag a charge on my credit card it's immediately cancelled and they deal with it. How does that work?

It does not work as seamlessly as CC w.r.t chargebacks.

What a lot of folks do is they pay for most purchases with UPI but try and ensure there is some kind of "undo" button somewhere for large purchases. If I am making a purchase on a shady website, or making a large purchase, I will pay using CC so that I can chargeback and the CC company will deal with it. However, even if I am buying a laptop or whatever on Amazon, I know that amazon will deal with returns and stuff properly, so I would just UPI it. There is also the matter of credit card offers and points and what not. If there is a good discount then CC is used.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#183

Post by theshackleford »

Jensson wrote: post #129
benced wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's false. It's 66.7% in the US. Only Iceland, Luxembourg, Switzerland, and Norway are higher. https://genderdata.worldbank.org/en/indicator/fin7-t-a?gende... (also, you answered - incorrectly - only one of the questions that I brought up)

That doesn't include debit cards, most people don't want nor need credit cards. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have seen people use cash the past year, basically everyone uses cards. We have VISA and Mastercard with debit, not credit, so it works everywhere.

Sure, but the question was specifically regarding credit cards, not debit cards. In which case, they would be correct in that penetration is appears lower for credit cards in the EU no?

Note, I am not suggesting that is a bad thing, I fail to see largely how its a bad think but perhaps I lack enough understanding to see why people not loading up on credit cards is a negative.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#184

Post by malthaus »

demaga wrote: post #163
akvadrako wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fees are capped at 0.3% in EU and most countries have their own systems that are more popular. The reason the credit card monopolies exist is they work globally.

But vast majority of people make most their transactions domestically. Why cater for the minority? Also, both can exist.

the vast majority of people doesn't care about payment technology/channels, they just want it to be convenient and work and not having to context shift between "if i pay on vacation i need to use this card, if i pay this guy i need to use this app, etc"

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#185

Post by crossroadsguy »

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #94

India has had UPI since 2016 now and recently overtook Visa and Mastercards global transaction volume with 650 million transactions per day [1]. These payment processors seem to be basically levying a 1-3% tax on a nations entire GDP and enforcing their own ideas of what transactions should or shouldn't be allowed. With UPI and Pix etc. paving the way and showing its possible, it actually sounds insane to give so muc…

First things first — this is correct. As a matter of fact, the Brazillian Pix - which gets much more “eyeballs” on places like HN, are much newer than UPI and UPI was one of the inspirations, if I may say so, behind it; and it dwarves in scale. Not to mention UPI is designed to be decentralised (almost decentralised).

Fair warning (pc, please know that I am not targeting you) about the URL pc has shared - it’s literally the mouthpiece of India’s ultra right mothership org (it’s literally called that - mother org - RSS) which is affiliated with BJP (in fact practically BJP, the authoritarian ruling party, is a branch/child of this org). And they are known for omitting and distorting history and context.

Here you go - some alt sources -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface

But UPI is a product - real deal comes from here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Payments_Corporatio...

These sources and alt sources also will highlight the history and thinking behind all this.

Like or dislike this Govt (tbh: I clearly fall in latter bracket) but I think payments is one arena (among many) where India is going really great and there many great things lined up. Luckily India is in a position right now to deliver a loud and unequivocal “F— You” to efforts from entities like MC/Visa when they try to assert their “birthright” of monopolising the world.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#186

Post by isodev »

omgwtfbbq123 wrote: post #165
isodev wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU (the ECB) is actively working towards a system similar to SEPA (Single Euro Payments Area) but for cards [0]. This would enable card transfers to also become faster (SEPA is instantaneous even cross-border within the EU) also allow for operations not depending on Visa or Mastercard. There is a major EU effort to develop an alternative 'instant payment' system that doesn't depend on Visa or Mastercard called We…

wero is a private company, from Belgium, not an EU initiative. In the same vibe you have Lydia in France that is successful.

I think the EU calls for a decentralised approach with multiple cross border providers.

Wero is technically from Benelux as there are origins in Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg. There are also other initiatives in Estonia, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, … to create alternative card payment system that is also resilient to internet failure.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#187

Post by matheusmoreira »

mzitelli wrote: post #17

Brazil central bank introduced Pix a few years ago. It took over the country as the public basic infrastructure for money transfer. Totally free and instantaneous transactions between people and companies, available to all banks. Then, just last week, the US presidency launched an investigation considering Pix an unfair trade practice against the US. Actions like that may show the current direction of the US governme…

American corporations have never been shy about using the might of the US government to protect their own interests. USTR's "notorious market reports" is a nice example. "Our stakeholders" want this, "our stakeholders" are concerned about that. It's a huge list sovereign nations get onto when american corporations don't like them. They put Canada on that list at some point.

I fully expected Trump to attempt to leverage the Bolsonaro trial into economic advantage but it was pretty surprising to see him take issue with pix of all things.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#188

Post by matheusmoreira »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #110
jimbob45 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can anyone please steel man the opposition argument for Pix?

You can’t create a moat to skim 3% of the economy as a for profit venture.

The brazilian government can choose to start taxing every single pix transaction at any time. Due to the electronic and centralized nature of the system, such taxes would be utterly inescapable. The only thing stopping them is the sheer unpopularity of such an action.

It's already being used for data cross referencing, tax collection and investigation purposes. There are plans to implement into these payment systems pretty much everything that cryptocurrency maximalists warned us about. It's a convenient system but at the same time quite dystopian.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#189

Post by cornholio »

hahn-kev wrote: post #177
Loughla wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about fighting charges? In the US, if I flag a charge on my credit card it's immediately cancelled and they deal with it. How does that work?

They way it works I don't receive a charge like you do with visa, the merchant presents a code, you scan it when your bank app and then the bank app asks if you want to send # of money to [merchant name], if you don't want to pay it then you don't approve the transfer in your app on your phone. However after the fact there's less options, I've never gone through

Bundling consumer protection with the payment system was always a bad idea. Payments need to be instantaneous and free.

The returns/refunds can be handled offline by a mutually agreed facilitator that does not have a monopoly on the payment system. You can also have a legal mandate that all internet purchase, for example, should employ such a service, that charges a market fee and is then liable for making fair decisions.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#190

Post by michaelmior »

thimabi wrote: post #49
mzitelli wrote: post #17

Brazil central bank introduced Pix a few years ago. It took over the country as the public basic infrastructure for money transfer. Totally free and instantaneous transactions between people and companies, available to all banks. Then, just last week, the US presidency launched an investigation considering Pix an unfair trade practice against the US. Actions like that may show the current direction of the US governme…

I got in this thread with the expectation of seeing a comment like yours, so thank you for that. I think what worries the U.S. more is the likelihood of Pix spreading around the world. It’s such a great public program that I believe many countries will eventually adopt it, or adopt some version of it. In fact, AFAIK some places already have it, like Thailand and Malaysia. Consumers like it because it is widely availa…

> Right now, the only thing that makes credit cards a better proposition is being able to pay without having enough money in the bank, and maybe enjoying greater protection from fraudulent merchants.

Rewards is another big one and the reason I personally prefer to use credit cards where possible.

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