Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024) • Hacker News Board

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#91

Post by FpUser » Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 12:45 AM UTC

thimabi wrote: post #49

mzitelli wrote: post #17

Brazil central bank introduced Pix a few years ago. It took over the country as the public basic infrastructure for money transfer. Totally free and instantaneous transactions between people and companies, available to all banks. Then, just last week, the US presidency launched an investigation considering Pix an unfair trade practice against the US. Actions like that may show the current direction of the US governme…

I got in this thread with the expectation of seeing a comment like yours, so thank you for that. I think what worries the U.S. more is the likelihood of Pix spreading around the world. It’s such a great public program that I believe many countries will eventually adopt it, or adopt some version of it. In fact, AFAIK some places already have it, like Thailand and Malaysia. Consumers like it because it is widely availa…

>" the only thing that makes credit cards a better proposition is being able to pay without having enough money in the bank"

I am not sure it is a better proposition if one looks at staggering amounts of debt caused by credit cards

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#92

Post by lmm » Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 12:49 AM UTC

orangea wrote: post #54

rprend wrote: post #30

Speaking as someone who tried (and failed) to build a competitor, merchants don’t actually care about the fees. We built a mobile payment system using bank transfer rails (ACH debits and FedNow credits) for ecom platforms. QR payments, just like AliPay, but for the US. We studied past failures at this same idea, and targeted specifically high ticket items (jewelry, luxury), because the fees are a bigger problem, and…

> targeted specifically high ticket items (jewelry, luxury) My immediate instinct upon reading this is "of course those businesses wouldn't be interested". They are selling a brand and image first, and if it looked like they wanted people to download some new app and put in their bank details to make a purchase instead of swiping a credit card it would cheapen the brand. Luxury stores are all about a streamlined expe…

Yeah. High-margin, high-end businesses can afford the fees. If there's a space to compete it's low-margin businesses where 3% really stings, even if it's 3% of a smaller gross. I used to work with a company that served mainly immigrants and blue-collar workers, and something lower-fee than credit/debit was a constant conversation (we were partway through building an ACH backend by the time I left, but I don't know if that ever made it into production given concerns we had).

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#93

Post by laurencerowe » Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 1:02 AM UTC

itake wrote: post #15

pavlov wrote: post #13

The credit card duopoly is another instance where the EU has done a good job with regulation, but everyone just takes it for granted until they’re reminded how much worse the rest of the world has it. In the EU, card payment fees are capped at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards. In the US, these interchange fees are about 2%. US businesses pay over $100 billion annually in these fees to card networks. If…

Is there information on EU vs US credit limits? How do the account fees compare between EU and US?

I was really surprised that it was normal to have account fees in the US. In the UK banking is free, at least until you hit an overdraft charge. They even made Bank ATMs fee free whatever bank you are with around 2000 (non bank ATMs still have a charge.)

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#94

Post by zaptheimpaler » Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 1:04 AM UTC

India has had UPI since 2016 now and recently overtook Visa and Mastercards global transaction volume with 650 million transactions per day [1]. These payment processors seem to be basically levying a 1-3% tax on a nations entire GDP and enforcing their own ideas of what transactions should or shouldn't be allowed. With UPI and Pix etc. paving the way and showing its possible, it actually sounds insane to give so much money and power to some private company that provides a worse product, for nation-critical infrastructure.

[1] https://organiser.org/2025/07/22/304055/bharat/a-fintech-rev...

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#95

Post by carlosjobim » Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 1:05 AM UTC

lillecarl wrote: post #25

itake wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there information on EU vs US credit limits? How do the account fees compare between EU and US?

I pay 3€ per month to "Nordea" for "unlimited" accounts and one VISA debit card.

My banks pays me more than that per month to use their debit cards.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#96

Post by laurencerowe » Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 1:06 AM UTC

867-5309 wrote: post #29

pavlov wrote: post #13

The credit card duopoly is another instance where the EU has done a good job with regulation, but everyone just takes it for granted until they’re reminded how much worse the rest of the world has it. In the EU, card payment fees are capped at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards. In the US, these interchange fees are about 2%. US businesses pay over $100 billion annually in these fees to card networks. If…

that's only a very recent change, and not universally rolled out. for decades shops charged ~£3 "connection fee" for paying by credit card, no matter the purchase amount, and many still (probably illegally) enforce a minimum spend if paying by credit or debit card. like when paying or withdrawing money abroad, it's just a lottery as to the "fees" you'll be charged not because there are such fees, but because someone…

As I remember it credit card minimums were only a thing at smaller shops but usually didn’t apply to debit cards.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#97

Post by Ayesh » Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 1:10 AM UTC

mzitelli wrote: post #85

thimabi wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got in this thread with the expectation of seeing a comment like yours, so thank you for that. I think what worries the U.S. more is the likelihood of Pix spreading around the world. It’s such a great public program that I believe many countries will eventually adopt it, or adopt some version of it. In fact, AFAIK some places already have it, like Thailand and Malaysia. Consumers like it because it is widely availa…

> Right now, the only thing that makes credit cards a better proposition is being able to pay without having enough money in the bank It will not take long. Banks are already offering products with credit on top of the Pix. Furthermore, contactless Pix is now available in Android phones. If we look from the financial and usability aspects, Pix will continue eating the credit card market share. I didn't know Thailand…

About half of the world population has access to some sort of QR based payment system nowadays.

India has UPI, China has Ali and Wechat pay. Almost everyone in these two countries can go weeks without having to use cash.

In South East Asia, Vietnam is leading QR payments. I live in Ha Noi, and I only carry VND equivalent of $15-20 with me, and it sits in the wallet for ages. Everything from gas stations to restaurants to street vendors to even paying taxes, you do it from a QR code. There is no wallet, the money is directly debited from the account.

Thailand, Singapore, and Indonesia have similar systems. In Indonesia, a couple of "super apps" had their own wallets, but merged with QRIS a few years back, a lot of Indonesian people can now pay with QR codes, even across wallets and bank accounts.

South America and Asia has already started to replace card payments with the QR payments. Rightfully so.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#98

Post by sophia01 » Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 1:13 AM UTC

benced wrote: post #44

pavlov wrote: post #13

The credit card duopoly is another instance where the EU has done a good job with regulation, but everyone just takes it for granted until they’re reminded how much worse the rest of the world has it. In the EU, card payment fees are capped at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards. In the US, these interchange fees are about 2%. US businesses pay over $100 billion annually in these fees to card networks. If…

People always cite the first-order benefits of this regulation but don't look into anything else. To be clear, I haven't either but what I would look for is: - are real prices cheaper for consumers? - is economic activity higher or lower (i.e. maybe credit cards encourage purchases?) - does making credit cards a less lucrative business lower credit card penetration? - is lowering credit card penetration, particularly…

Oh come on. You are going to debate whether a 3% parasitic tax is good or bad. Interchange is paid on debit card transactions too, it's not credit card specific.

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#99

Post by one-note » Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 1:19 AM UTC

FpUser wrote: post #91

thimabi wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got in this thread with the expectation of seeing a comment like yours, so thank you for that. I think what worries the U.S. more is the likelihood of Pix spreading around the world. It’s such a great public program that I believe many countries will eventually adopt it, or adopt some version of it. In fact, AFAIK some places already have it, like Thailand and Malaysia. Consumers like it because it is widely availa…

>" the only thing that makes credit cards a better proposition is being able to pay without having enough money in the bank" I am not sure it is a better proposition if one looks at staggering amounts of debt caused by credit cards

You don’t want to spend money you don’t have? Congrats, your credit score is trash and now you can’t rent a house (let alone buy).

Re: Visa and Mastercard: The global payment duopoly (2024)

#100

Post by btown » Fri, Jul 25, 2025, 1:19 AM UTC

867-5309 wrote: post #29

pavlov wrote: post #13

The credit card duopoly is another instance where the EU has done a good job with regulation, but everyone just takes it for granted until they’re reminded how much worse the rest of the world has it. In the EU, card payment fees are capped at 0.2% for debit cards and 0.3% for credit cards. In the US, these interchange fees are about 2%. US businesses pay over $100 billion annually in these fees to card networks. If…

that's only a very recent change, and not universally rolled out. for decades shops charged ~£3 "connection fee" for paying by credit card, no matter the purchase amount, and many still (probably illegally) enforce a minimum spend if paying by credit or debit card. like when paying or withdrawing money abroad, it's just a lottery as to the "fees" you'll be charged not because there are such fees, but because someone…

A bit pedantic, but especially relevant in a conversation about government-permitted monopoly power: while requiring minimum spend might be in breach of the payment networks' contracts, and may give rise to _civil_ liability (and punitive measures towards the merchants), we shouldn't use language like "illegal" that implies that government would have any interest in, or capacity for, proactive enforcement.

When we use language that evokes the mechanisms of state and implies they'd be used to enforce a monopoly power, we imbue that power with the gravity of those mechanisms, and further entrench it as a "way of life." We should be especially careful of that when said monopoly/duopoly essentially creates and enables a private taxation of the primary source of credit to many in the world!