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Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars

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Re: Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars

#241
post #119
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My model Y can effect a very reasonable stop in traffic without touching the brake pedal except to hold the car at the end. My manual car could do this 20 years ago. My fully ICE motorcycle can do it today. I know engine braking is cool but it’s not some amazing new thing only EVs can do. Altho granted it only produces heat and noise in petrol vehicles. But it also makes your heart sing so that’s nice

The difference is neither of those generates gasoline on an ICE vehicle.

Yup. For example on a round trip today in me EV (2025 Hyundai Kona) on the out here are the stats:

     2 kWh for the drivetrain
   809  Wh regenerated
On the way home:

     2 kWh for the drivetrain
   547  Wh regenerated
For the round trip that's 33% less energy use than if the car did not have regenerative braking.

I'm mostly happy about that but there is one thing that annoys me. 33% is close to how much a kilometer is shorter than a mile (38%).

Why the fuck would I care that these two numbers are that close? It is because of a mystery in the Hyundai app. When you look up the trip details for an EV trip it gives you mileage, duration, and energy use (drivetrain, climate, accessories) and regeneration.

The mileage is substantially less than what the car shows. For example for the aforementioned trip home that trip odometer shows 8.0 miles but the Hyundai app shows 5 miles. The car odometer has the correct distance.

There are two theories to explain this.

1. The app is showing how many miles worth of energy you used rather than your actual trip mileage. All the other data it shows (except for the duration) is energy related. For my 8.0 mile trip I got 3 miles worth of the energy the drivetrain used back via regeneration, so I only actually paid for 5 miles worth of electricity.

Based on the Wh given it should actually be 5.4 miles, but the app only displays integer mileage so 5 it is.

2. It's a botched unit conversion. E.g., the car uploads the data in miles but the expects the data to be in km, so it is doing a conversion. That would turn the 8.0 into 5.0, which would be 5 in the app and so matches what theory #1 predicts.

I've checked several of my trips and they have always happened to have the right amount of regeneration so that the two theories match due to the app only showing an integer mileage.

I did a test today to try to tell them apart. I changed the car's settings to km and took a trip. The idea was if the car had been uploading in miles that would hopefully change it to upload in km, matching the app's expectation, and so the miles shown in the app would match the actual miles of the trip if theory #2 was correct, and show the regeneration corrected miles if theory #1 was correct.

The result was that the app still showed miles consistent with theory #1. So mystery solved, right?

Maybe not. When the car was set to miles everything showed in miles. Speedometer, odometers, efficiency (mi/kWh), speed limits it read from traffic signs, and speed limits it gets from the map data when using navigation on highways.

I expected than when I switched it to km all of those would be in km, and I would not see miles anywhere. Also, I expected that when it saw a speed limit sign that said say 60 it would interpret that as 60 km/hr.

What actually happened is that miles mostly did go away, except on the speedometer it added a smaller mi/hr display under the km/hr display. For the traffic signs it still knew they were in mi/hr and it converted them, so when I got on the freeway as soon as I passed the sign that said 60 the speed limit sign shown on the instrument cluster said 97, and the red dot on the speedometer showing the current limit was placed in the right place.

That suggests that the car knows it is in a country that uses miles, and doesn't just go by whatever the units setting in the setup screen is set to. It could be that in miles countries the car also uploads in miles all the time, and so switching the units setting to km would not change the results if theory #2 was true.

Now my plan is to find a big parking lot that is mostly empty overnight, such at a Walmart or Home Depot or a mall, go there and turn the car off and then back on which starts a new trip, set regeneration to 0 which turns off automatic regeneration on the accelerator so the car only regenerates when you use the brake pedal, and then drive around the parking lot for about 10 miles without using the brakes, then coast to a stop and turn the car off the end the trip.

Then I'll turn it back on, drive home, and check the trip details in the app. If theory #1 is right then the miles in the app should match the odometer miles. If theory #2 is correct the app miles should still be 38% shorter than the odometer miles.

Re: Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars

#242

Good to have more data points and evidence, but this seems extremely well established by now? Zero tailpipe emissions, drastically removed brake dust, slightly higher tire wear (due to weight), but much better overall than ICE.

>drastically removed brake dust It will be very interesting to see the data for the same car that has many powertrain versions for example the Lexus UX with the UX 200 (ICE), UX 300h (hybrid) and UX 300e (EV) to test which one the best and the worst in term of brake dust residue. My hypotheses is that for brake dust residue the best is hybrid, 2nd will be ICE and the 3rd will be EV. This is due to the fact that the E…

My hypothesis is that in normal driving the EV with 30% extra weight will be using its brakes 90% less, making it beat the ICE version by a lot.

EV versus hybrid I couldn't say, it comes down to exactly how strong the hybrid regen is and how aggressively the owner brakes in comparison.

Why is your hypothesis so different from mine? How much use do you expect the EV brakes to get?

Re: Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars

#243
post #16

We should obviously ban combustion engine cars, at least starting with cities. I can’t think of a single clearer win for air quality.

I can think of many. The list should start with coal power plants (hello, green Germany), then two-stroke engines (both mopeds and leaf blowers / lawn mowers), then diesel engines, especially diesel buses and trucks. None of that is in place.

Modern gasoline and hybrid cars are fine, banning them at this point in time would mean a drop in quality of life for negligible gain.

Re: Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars

#244
post #106
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To some extent, but not really. Effectiveness of regenerative braking depends on having an extremely large battery that can sink enough current to stop the car. An EV can do that, hybrids at best help the brakes out some. You just can't charge the battery fast enough doing anything but a very slow rolling stop. My model Y can effect a very reasonable stop in traffic without touching the brake pedal except to hold the…

> My model Y can effect a very reasonable stop in traffic without touching the brake pedal except to hold the car at the end. My manual car could do this 20 years ago. My fully ICE motorcycle can do it today. I know engine braking is cool but it’s not some amazing new thing only EVs can do. Altho granted it only produces heat and noise in petrol vehicles. But it also makes your heart sing so that’s nice

And how often did you engine break with that ICE car when driving around the city? Because I did it only when driving down extreme slopes. It also cannot do a full stop.

With an EV I don't touch breaks unless in situations I fail to/couldn't predict (maybe up to 10% of all speed reductions and even less stops).

Re: Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars

#245
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair EV's can have some very high initial torque delivery, and are heavy = tyre shredding beasts. I know I know, people aren't supposed to be taking off from every light at full chat, but, given the capability some people can't help themselves.

The biggest problem for new EV drivers, in my view, is that EVs generally have extremely good traction control systems that prevent chirping due to the ability to cut back power to the motors much more quickly than you can with a gas engine. What this means is that you can push tires to the absolute limit and not chirp them (which, is best for traction anyways) which absolutely roasts them. Most people associate chir…

You can absolutely get them to chirp, you just have to be, uh, brave. Or stupid. I deposited my tyres along my daily commute over four months - it’s like having one of those racing line markers in a game.

Although I may drive a bit more sensibly for now as €4K a year on tyres wasn’t in my budget.

Re: Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everytime I fill my truck up, I’m at the gas station thinking “man, I wish I could just hang out here for two hours!!”

More like 20 minutes, but ok, not everyone likes that.

20 minutes to get you home if there is a free charger, ok.

Zero to a hundred, you know that isn’t even remotely true.

Re: Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars

#247
post #16

We should obviously ban combustion engine cars, at least starting with cities. I can’t think of a single clearer win for air quality.

I can think of many. The list should start with coal power plants (hello, green Germany), then two-stroke engines (both mopeds and leaf blowers / lawn mowers), then diesel engines, especially diesel buses and trucks. None of that is in place. Modern gasoline and hybrid cars are fine, banning them at this point in time would mean a drop in quality of life for negligible gain.

Diesel transport trucks and busses are getting a lot of work done per gallon. How much worse are their emissions?

Hybrid cars might be good enough, but banning pure combustion cars from cities sounds perfectly reasonable to me. No real quality of life impact.

Re: Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars

#248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

depends where the puncture is. too close to the sidewall and you have to bin them. if they've already been plugged once and theu get another puncture its off to the bin.

> if they've already been plugged once and theu get another puncture its off to the bin. Again, that's your personal choice. We've got off road and on road tyres we still use with four to five tyre plugs in them that have lasted a few years since their last puncture. I'm in non urban Australia and have cars actively used with > 500,000 km on the clock. We were raised to maintain gear; be it cars, trucks, aircraft, ex…

It's a choice in so much as I would be gambling against how likely I am to get knocked back at a safety inspection for having plugs on the side wall. I'm in urban NSW and whether I'd get by a safety inspection would be a gamble on how particular the mechanic is. One of the mechanics I go to warned me about a single slightly cloudy headlight for my next inspection, which is comical compared to some of the cars I've seen on the roads in Sydney. I'm sure he'd be a big fan of those tyres.

Understandable if you're rural though.

Re: Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars

#249
post #4

An an EV owner, I can testify that the tyre wear more than makes up for the reduction in brake dust. I’ve had to change tyres every 10K miles.

I'm not sure I can agree with this. I have 2 EVs, and the tire looks almost brand new after like 10k miles. I think the driving habits matter more than whether the car is EV or not.

I have 42k km / 26k miles on the tires Tesla equipped me with and they are in good condition.

Re: Electric cars produce less brake dust pollution than combustion-engine cars

#250
post #4

An an EV owner, I can testify that the tyre wear more than makes up for the reduction in brake dust. I’ve had to change tyres every 10K miles.

EV owners aren’t exactly rare around these parts. Neither are people who drive cars of a similar weight, such as midsize SUVs. There’s no good reason why you should be changing your tires at 10k miles.

When you can see interleave that’s a good reason to change your tyres. My stock tyres on a model Y lasted 11,000km - but my daily drive is a tortured ribbon of tarmac with nothing but corners.
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