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The United States withdraws from UNESCO

state.gov

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Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#791

Post by tguvot »

tavavex wrote: post #682
tguvot wrote: post #627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's not that it's hard to leave gaza. it's just nobody willing to accept gazans. and trumps plan that talks about voluntary migration out of gaza is been described as genocide and ethnic cleansing (btw, 75% of them actually registered as refugees by unrwa for past many decades) i never saw anybody been against migration of population out of war zone to safety. in case of ukrainian refugees it was widely discussed th…

> it's not that it's hard to leave gaza. it's just nobody willing to accept gazans. Isn't it both? I'm not an expert on this by any means, but it seems like anyone who's born on that land will find it almost impossible to leave. Both countries that have land borders with Gaza will usually not admit locals, except in very few exceptions. Even someone trying to transit through Israel to other countries would probably n…

around 100k gazans left through egypt in last 2 years. they needed to pay bribes to egyptian officials.

when israel after trump announcement said that idf will help people (who want to leave) to leave through israel, everybody screamed that it's literally proof that israel executes genocide and ethnic cleansing

typically to be refugee you need to get to country and request this status. you can't get refugee status remotely.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#792

Post by tguvot »

skybrian wrote: post #789
themgt wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i never saw anybody been against migration of population out of war zone to safety. I can't think of any comparable historical example of declaring a people's entire territory a war zone and migrating a substantial/majority of the entire population out. Can you? The reality is they'd be unlikely to ever be able/allowed to return, and as such the actual purpose of such a project would be ethnically cleansing the terri…

My guess is that many people wouldn't want to leave, but helping some people to leave also helps those who stay: fewer mouths to feed, less work for very strained medical facilities, and so on.

50% want to leave

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/almost-half-gazans...

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#793

Post by skybrian »

tguvot wrote: post #791
tavavex wrote: post #682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not that it's hard to leave gaza. it's just nobody willing to accept gazans. Isn't it both? I'm not an expert on this by any means, but it seems like anyone who's born on that land will find it almost impossible to leave. Both countries that have land borders with Gaza will usually not admit locals, except in very few exceptions. Even someone trying to transit through Israel to other countries would probably n…

around 100k gazans left through egypt in last 2 years. they needed to pay bribes to egyptian officials. when israel after trump announcement said that idf will help people (who want to leave) to leave through israel, everybody screamed that it's literally proof that israel executes genocide and ethnic cleansing typically to be refugee you need to get to country and request this status. you can't get refugee status re…

Trump was talking about forced migration. There's no reason anyone else needs to support that.

Legal restrictions could be reduced if there are any counties willing to take refugees.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#794

Post by skybrian »

tguvot wrote: post #792
skybrian wrote: post #789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is that many people wouldn't want to leave, but helping some people to leave also helps those who stay: fewer mouths to feed, less work for very strained medical facilities, and so on.

50% want to leave https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/almost-half-gazans...

Good to know.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#795

Post by int_19h »

dmix wrote: post #668
taylodl wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most American evangelicals support Israel. I'm not so sure if the rest of the remaining Americans also support Israel.

According to Gallup the majority of the US public supports Israel over Palestine, just as it has for decades. It's now "at it's lowest in 25 years" but it's still 46% vs 33% for Palestine, down from around 60% pro Israel in prior years. https://thecradle.co/articles/us-popular-support-for-israel-... About 10% of Americans identify as evangelical protestants https://www.graphsaboutreligion.com/p/how-many-evangelicals-…

46% is a plurality, not a majority.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#796

Post by BuyMyBitcoins »

Tadpole9181 wrote: post #778
BuyMyBitcoins wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Said noose was some poorly tied nylon rope affixed to a rinky-dink prop gallows on the front lawn. It was some protestor’s prop, and a really shoddy one at that. Most photos don’t convey the actual size of it, because they just focus on the top crossbar, but even so, you can see just how ineffective that “noose” would be. If you search for a photo that shows it in full, you will see that a person could easily stand u…

> It was a bad noose prop, they were just threatening to murder elected officials if they didn't install the unelected dictator who directed them to do this. > Sure, they were at the event where people violently broke through police, into the capital, into offices and the chamber, looking for public officials with zip ties while chanting for death to specific members of Congress and the vice president... But the peop…

>” But the people with this specific noose prop probably only had good intentions.”

I never said they had good intentions. What I am saying is that that noose and gallows were obviously never intended to be used. The construction and dimensions of it are comical.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#797

Post by int_19h »

mola wrote: post #716
Hikikomori wrote: post #590

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some US interference? Like funding the genocide? Pretty much all atrocities in the middle east can be traced back Europeans (mainly UK) carving up the area after ww1 and theirs and American imperialism since ww2. Israel is a project of this.

So you want Israel to cease to exist? Germany did the Holocaust, nobody said Germany can't exist. Russia attacks Ukraine in an emperialistic power move, no one suggest Russia shouldn't exist. But Israel is a "project" that needs to end. More like a scape goat. I'm israeli. This war is bad, my government is evil. But I deserve to have a nation to call home, so do the Palestinians. If you disagree with me, think about…

If the only way that Israel can continue to exist is as an apartheid state where a large proportion of the population has to be forcibly kept in a status with no political rights, or else expelled or killed altogether, then yes, Israel doesn't deserve to exist.

Now, I don't know whether that is true. It seems to be the argument that the Israeli government and the right-wing majority of its population are making now - that if they give Palestinians actual freedom, Israel will just cease to be, so they have to starve people to death, bomb them etc. The more they do that, the stronger the argument that Israel should cease to exist.

If there is another option that allows Israel to continue to exist, that's great. But it's really up to Israel to come up with a viable option for that, because Israel is an alien entity that forcefully imposed itself on this territory to begin with.

Regarding Russia, I'm a Russian citizen, and the invasion of Ukraine did, in fact, made me reach the conclusion that Russia should not exist as a state. It's not that this particular war is especially damning; it's that Russia has a very long track record of imperialist wars, and, more importantly, it doesn't change - it keeps doing it. Arguably Russia as it exists today is inevitably imperialistic simply because it's a polity that is cobbled together and still largely held by force or threat of it - it never really fully de-colonized, and if it ever does, it'd be an order of magnitude smaller. So from that perspective it really cannot change - and if so, then yes, it should cease to exist.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#798

Post by int_19h »

DSingularity wrote: post #485
disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots and lots of states were founded by terrorists. Like, my state (Ireland) was founded by a bunch of them. Our longest standing leader (DeValera) was involved in the 1916 rising and was only not executed because he was a US citizen and the Brits wanted the US to join WW1. Which is to say, that many many states have been founded by terrorists/freedom fighters. That's the norm, not the exception. Like, from the persp…

I’m using the word “terrorism” in exactly the way it should be used. Ireland was founded by people fighting for liberty. South Africa the same. The Israeli founders were terrorists. They used terror to ethnically cleanse the lands of its indigenous population. Anybody that supports this or tries to draw false parallels with genuine liberation movements is disgusting for obvious reasons.

You seem to be implying that "genuine liberation movements" cannot use terrorist methods, which is rather obviously false.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#799

Post by landl0rd »

skybrian wrote: post #785
landl0rd wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm why do many countries not want to accept Palestinians? - Supported Saddam in Kuwait - Supported Saddam in Iraq - Massacred Christians in Lebanon - Tried to overthrow Jordan - Caused chaos in Syria - Destabilized Libya - Aligned with iranian axis despite gulf states (eg Saudi) hosting at that time - Complained about Egypt-Israel peace despite the former being the only country to send men to die for them - Sent jih…

It's not that many people if divided up among many countries. These don't seem like reasons not to accept women and children from a war zone as refugees. Perhaps with some limits.

Exactly. It's not that many people and they still get into a ton of trouble. That seems like an excellent reason to either not accept them, or to enforce that they need to be dispersed widely enough to prevent forming a community and conducting violence in its name until they're back in palestine.

Like we can even blame the way things are on the israelis, or at least majorly on them, but that doesn't change the calculus for other arab states.

Re: The United States withdraws from UNESCO

#800

Post by tguvot »

skybrian wrote: post #793
tguvot wrote: post #791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

around 100k gazans left through egypt in last 2 years. they needed to pay bribes to egyptian officials. when israel after trump announcement said that idf will help people (who want to leave) to leave through israel, everybody screamed that it's literally proof that israel executes genocide and ethnic cleansing typically to be refugee you need to get to country and request this status. you can't get refugee status re…

Trump was talking about forced migration. There's no reason anyone else needs to support that. Legal restrictions could be reduced if there are any counties willing to take refugees.

he wasn't talking about forced migration. he was talking about giving people housing/etc in other countries while gaza been rebuild, and later if they want they can come back.

at no point he was saying that gazans will be rounded up and moved out.

the way that conversation is going now is (and i am not trump fan):

- everybody: gaza is destroyed and nobody can live there. conditions are inhumane

- trump: lets allow to people move out to different countries, provide them with housing/jobs/etc while gaza is rebuild

- israel: we will help to people who want to leave - to leave

- everybody: this is literal genocide and ethnic cleansing. gazans should stay in gaza

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