George Gilder: Capitalism is based on information and knowledge, not greed • Hacker News Board

Re: George Gilder: Capitalism is based on information and knowledge, not greed

#51

Post by ilaksh » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:10 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #12

I'm not sure this random collection of quotes is a great starting point for a discussion as broad as what "capitalism is". Especially quotes that come in an election year from a non-economist mainly famous for his GOP activism. If you do want an argument in favor of the information-aggregation view of markets, and what is required for them to work in practice, F.A. Hayek provides a better analysis.

To what degree are Hayek's theories proven by scientific studies?

In what manner does F.A. Hayek incorporate our contemporary social, physical, ecological, engineering, and systems science and technologies into his theories?

Any field which purports to scientifically guide the operation of the planet must integrate these sciences and technologies.

Economics is more philosophy, speculation and faith than it is science.

Re: George Gilder: Capitalism is based on information and knowledge, not greed

#52

Post by cedmart » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:30 PM UTC

adrianscott wrote: post #27

e12e wrote: post #24

Isn't Capitalism based on... capital? Investing in production in such a way that you increase your profit rate -- with the inevitable result being consolidation of capital, and therefore power over the means of production -- or in other words the consolidation of power? With globalization this becomes an even more serious problem, because the entities that control the capital are extra-national. So from the joyful hi…

"Microsoft won that one, despite loosing." (sic) please explain?

I read it as: "By bundling IE with Windows, abusing (illegal) the Windows monopoly (legal) MS managed to basically kill Netscape... Despite losing the legal battle and being --forever-- regarded as a company that did abuse its monopoly to drive out a competitor".

It's not about IE vs Chrome, it's not about IE vs Safari. It's not about whatever-MS-mobile-OS vs Android vs iOS.

It's about IE vs Netscape and MS (illegally) "winning" that war despite losing in court.

Re: George Gilder: Capitalism is based on information and knowledge, not greed

#53

Post by iAinsley » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 7:59 PM UTC

huh? Capitalism is about risk and reward. Capitalists look to government for a number of things:

a) Infrastructure b) Political stability c) Market Regulation (e.g. fair competition, orderly markets, currency,etc) d) and risk reduction

Capitalists are free to asks for any other thing that decreases risk, it doesn't mean the government has to respond in all cases. I disagree with George, there is not direct path between incentives and socialism.

Re: George Gilder: Capitalism is based on information and knowledge, not greed

#54

Post by _delirium » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 8:28 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #47

michaelochurch wrote: post #7

Capitalism has its problems, but its critical selling point is that, if it works well, you don't need official approval to do business. In the USSR, it was a crime to compete with the one established business: the state. Fusions of state and business power (whether from the left, as in communism, or from the right, as in fascism) are almost always bad. The major win (practical and moral) in capitalism is the right of…

...or from the right, as in fascism... Fascism was (by modern US standards) a center-left ideology. It emphasizes collectivism/corporatism, authoritarianism and nationalism. You are also using the term "corporatism" incorrectly. Corporatism is a political system which elevates the rights of privileged corporates (a better modern term would be "special interest groups") above the rights of individuals. A good example…

On purely economic grounds, I could see that characterization, but fascism's principal features don't have a lot of support among centrists or leftists. It emphasizes a unified ethnic culture (which includes opposition to multiculturalism and a general xenophobia), a military-first policy, and national-greatness/exceptionalism, all of which are typically associated with the right.

In a U.S. context, rural conservatives share many more of those features than either urban conservatives or liberals: they combine a mild economic populism with opposition to multiculturalism, strong support for American exceptionalism, suppression of "deviant" individual behavior (porn, profanity, blasphemy, homosexuality, etc.), support for a strong military, etc. A closer but now largely defunct analog might be the old Dixiecrats.

In Europe you commonly find descended ideologies in the far-right parties. In Denmark, for example, the Dansk Folkeparti combines support for a social welfare system—for Danes—with strong opposition to allowing non-Danes to enter the country, exclusion of immigrants from social-welfare benefits, legislation in favor of protecting Danish culture and combatting the importation of foreign cultural elements, banning mosque construction, and a strong military to fight Islamism worldwide.

Re: George Gilder: Capitalism is based on information and knowledge, not greed

#55

Post by MordinSolus » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 10:29 PM UTC

anamax wrote: post #35

MordinSolus wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> capitalism begets conglomeration Not if the state actually does it's job. For a free-market to exist the state must necessarily prevent anti-competitive practices. In the U.S., unfortunately, the notion that social democracy is necessary arose during the great depression (because capitalism clearly failed /s) and resulted in the New Deal, which was, of course, socialist policy. It was that which started our slow an…

> the notion that social democracy is necessary arose during the great depression Yes, it did arise then. > (because capitalism clearly failed /s) Not so fast. The interesting question until recently was "why did the great depression last so long?". Remember, all previous depressions and panics ended fairly quickly. The current answer is FDR's policies, specifically industry and production controls. (To be fair, FDRs…

> (because capitalism clearly failed /s)

BTW I was just poking fun at people who think that the Great Depression was a result of unbridled capitalism instead of bad government policy.

Re: George Gilder: Capitalism is based on information and knowledge, not greed

#56

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 10:45 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #54

yummyfajitas wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...or from the right, as in fascism... Fascism was (by modern US standards) a center-left ideology. It emphasizes collectivism/corporatism, authoritarianism and nationalism. You are also using the term "corporatism" incorrectly. Corporatism is a political system which elevates the rights of privileged corporates (a better modern term would be "special interest groups") above the rights of individuals. A good example…

On purely economic grounds, I could see that characterization, but fascism's principal features don't have a lot of support among centrists or leftists. It emphasizes a unified ethnic culture (which includes opposition to multiculturalism and a general xenophobia), a military-first policy, and national-greatness/exceptionalism, all of which are typically associated with the right. In a U.S. context, rural conservativ…

Sad fact - fascism and virtually every other ideology of 30's incorporated racism. Racism was just an easy way to garner support. It's also a sideshow to the intellectual basis for fascism, which is collectivism and authoritarianism. (The name is derived from the word "fasces", which is Italian for a bundle of sticks.)

That said, fascism isn't all that accurately classified as left wing either. While modern left wingers do embrace the collectivism that fascism is based on, fascism doesn't care much about "social justice", "inequality", or any of the other big left wing buzzwords.

Similarly, fascism cares very little about various other right wing values, e.g. traditional protestant values or whatever. They are a convenient way to convince particular corporates to join your syndicate (making it stronger), but that's all.

This is why I characterize it as "center left" - it doesn't fit easily with any mainstream ideology, but collectivism does point more left than right.

Racism is also irrelevant when attempting to determine where fascism lives. Racism is split pretty evenly across American political parties, and it is not a significant part of any major American ideology: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2012/08/rac...

Re: George Gilder: Capitalism is based on information and knowledge, not greed

#57

Post by _delirium » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 11:02 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #56

_delirium wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On purely economic grounds, I could see that characterization, but fascism's principal features don't have a lot of support among centrists or leftists. It emphasizes a unified ethnic culture (which includes opposition to multiculturalism and a general xenophobia), a military-first policy, and national-greatness/exceptionalism, all of which are typically associated with the right. In a U.S. context, rural conservativ…

Sad fact - fascism and virtually every other ideology of 30's incorporated racism. Racism was just an easy way to garner support. It's also a sideshow to the intellectual basis for fascism, which is collectivism and authoritarianism. (The name is derived from the word "fasces", which is Italian for a bundle of sticks.) That said, fascism isn't all that accurately classified as left wing either. While modern left wing…

I don't think it's so much racism per se as a militant nationalism and national-exceptionalist view, as the key defining feature (we are the best nation and will build a glory that will shine for the ages).

Before Hitler forced him to pass anti-Jewish laws, Mussolini wasn't particularly racist, just nationalist. His thing was the eternal greatness of Italy, the connection to ancient Roman glory, the new legions of Italy rebuilding the Roman empire, reorienting society on martial and patriotic lines, etc., etc. The collectivism basically stems from that: the Nation above all. To me, that's a very right-wing sort of collectivism, whereas both the left and liberals have more of an internationalist and multicultural orientation.

It's true that it's not libertarian (either right-libertarian or left-libertarian). But I don't think it's too alien from cultural conservatism and "national greatness conservatism", which also places a high emphasis on patriotism and the nation, and is highly critical of individuals who deviate from what they see as the good of the community (hence the traditional conservative support for censorship of blasphemous, prurient, and seditious literature, as they believe it's the government's job to prevent this kind of deviance). As one litmus test, we might look at which parts of the political spectrum support mandatory Pledge of Allegiance recitation, in order to train the youth to put their Nation first.

Re: George Gilder: Capitalism is based on information and knowledge, not greed

#58

Post by yummyfajitas » Sat, Sep 01, 2012, 11:48 PM UTC

_delirium wrote: post #57

yummyfajitas wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad fact - fascism and virtually every other ideology of 30's incorporated racism. Racism was just an easy way to garner support. It's also a sideshow to the intellectual basis for fascism, which is collectivism and authoritarianism. (The name is derived from the word "fasces", which is Italian for a bundle of sticks.) That said, fascism isn't all that accurately classified as left wing either. While modern left wing…

I don't think it's so much racism per se as a militant nationalism and national-exceptionalist view, as the key defining feature (we are the best nation and will build a glory that will shine for the ages). Before Hitler forced him to pass anti-Jewish laws, Mussolini wasn't particularly racist, just nationalist. His thing was the eternal greatness of Italy, the connection to ancient Roman glory, the new legions of It…

I also don't think it's too alien from modern American liberalism, which similarly places a high emphasis on patriotism and national greatness. Remember when we used to be the greatest manufacturing power, with a glorious middle class? The state can bring our next golden age.

Similarly, "Nation Above All" sounds a lot like "Ask not how the State can serve you, ask how you can serve the State" (JFK's verbiage tweaked only slightly). "All within the state" sounds like it describes the "Life of Julia".

I'd really like to know what modern conservatives you feel embody the "Nation/State Above All". Isn't Romney's slogan these days "we [individuals] built it, not the state?"

As for punishing those who deviate from what they see as the good of the community, most major ideologies favor that. It's nothing unusual, which is why there is also traditional liberal support for censorship (of slightly different topics).

Re: George Gilder: Capitalism is based on information and knowledge, not greed

#59

Post by csense » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 12:11 AM UTC

michaelochurch wrote: post #7

Capitalism has its problems, but its critical selling point is that, if it works well, you don't need official approval to do business. In the USSR, it was a crime to compete with the one established business: the state. Fusions of state and business power (whether from the left, as in communism, or from the right, as in fascism) are almost always bad. The major win (practical and moral) in capitalism is the right of…

> You see this, for example, in commercial air travel, where you get Soviet quality of service but the bizarre, unpredictable pricing you'd expect from a runaway market (that is actually not so much a "market" as an algorithm designed to fuck you over).

I don't do much air travel, so I can't say much about this personally.

My questions about this specific topic are as follows:

1. Why don't the substandard airlines have their lunch eaten by a startup airline which combines good service with a simple pricing schedule?

2. What alternative are you proposing?

> Corporatism is a system designed to give the best of both systems (capitalism and socialism) for a well-connected, parasitic social elite

As far as I know -- again, I don't fly on a regular basis -- you don't have to be part of a "well-connected, parasitic social elite" to fly business class; cash or credit card will suffice.

Likewise, you don't have to have any qualifications whatsoever, let alone be part of the "well-connected, parasitic social elite...[which is really] about 0.2%", in order to build your own company or become a shareholder of a publicly traded one.

Re: George Gilder: Capitalism is based on information and knowledge, not greed

#60

Post by csense » Sun, Sep 02, 2012, 12:22 AM UTC

MaysonL wrote: post #48

njharman wrote: post #25

Sure, whatever. It doesn't matter what "Capitalism" is. Evolution has made human-nature greedy. And all these systems (capitalism, consumerism, socialism, communism, anarchy, have one overriding commonality; they're implementors, regulators, and constituent parts are all human. Whom, in the aggregate, follow human-nature (by definition). No matter what system you think we have (or should), what system they tell us we…

Instincts are all well and good. The problems arise when they get out of control: whether it's the instinct for food, the instinct for sex, the instinct for more, the instinct for curiosity. When you are in control of your instincts, things work. When your instincts run you, you're headed for trouble. Greed, under control, can be valuable. Greed uber alles, leads to parasites like Romney getting filthily richer by do…

> parasites like Romney getting filthily richer by doing things like bankrupting KP Toys.

If you're a major league batter, sometimes you strike out, but at the end of the day you still get paid.

If you're a Senator, sometimes your bill gets defeated because your party simply doesn't have the votes, but at the end of the day you still get credit for fighting for it.

Beating up on Romney for not being able to bat 1000 as a consultant has always seemed a little harsh to me. Sometimes in life, you're simply dealt a losing hand, and nothing you can do will lead to the outcome you wish for. Without knowing more details of the circumstances, I'm willing to give Romney the benefit of the doubt on this one.