Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, that's good. Those are institutionalized builders who hold inventory. Let them go. Let builders who are paid workers to do the job, whose income doesn't depend on house price but is described in contract between owner, bank and the builder. What's wrong with such a schema?
Most houses are not built 1:1 with the land underneath it. Builders buy larger plots and then use it to make multiple houses. So a builder would need to enter at least the land risk in your scheme still. Then if they had to wait for each plot and future house sale to occur before pricing the sale they couldn't get economies of scale. Effectively your scheme turns every house into a more complicated bespoke futures co…
What happens when housing prices go down?
311–320 of 347 posts
Re: What happens when housing prices go down?
#312Earlier quoted context omitted.
> But probably, first some homebuilders who use the current model have to go bankrupt. I think it's not necessary. The different model homebuilders should pick up the orders, that's it.
They don't exist - today, at least not in any quantity. There are very few "different model" homebuilders waiting around to pick up the orders. It's not like you think it should be, and the path from here to there is less smooth than you seem to think it is.
Re: What happens when housing prices go down?
#313Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, that's good. Those are institutionalized builders who hold inventory. Let them go. Let builders who are paid workers to do the job, whose income doesn't depend on house price but is described in contract between owner, bank and the builder. What's wrong with such a schema?
Most houses are not built 1:1 with the land underneath it. Builders buy larger plots and then use it to make multiple houses. So a builder would need to enter at least the land risk in your scheme still. Then if they had to wait for each plot and future house sale to occur before pricing the sale they couldn't get economies of scale. Effectively your scheme turns every house into a more complicated bespoke futures co…
Most people that had their house built decades ago don't realize the requirements for things like runoff control in modern subdivisions. In the past your water was someone else's problem, which as populations grew lead to some people getting screwed when flood waters reached new heights because of all the new impermeable land. Water impounding and runoff control are very hard to build by an individual unless they have a large chunk of land (which acts as the sink). Any dense new SFH typically ends up in a MUD that provides all the utilities and water controls and this is insanely expensive unless distributed across a large number of units.
If we want to control housing prices it won't be by building more SFH. It will be by building more dense style housing.
Re: What happens when housing prices go down?
#314Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most houses are not built 1:1 with the land underneath it. Builders buy larger plots and then use it to make multiple houses. So a builder would need to enter at least the land risk in your scheme still. Then if they had to wait for each plot and future house sale to occur before pricing the sale they couldn't get economies of scale. Effectively your scheme turns every house into a more complicated bespoke futures co…
It surely wins if the other side just walks away from the problem.
Otherwise houses won't get built and the prices of existing houses will go even higher.
Re: What happens when housing prices go down?
#315Earlier quoted context omitted.
> On the other hand, if prices come down then the broader economic engine will grow ornery and stagnate A rather small part of the economy relies on high long term returns on housing. You can build homes and sell them for rather small margins and that's good business. Many types of businesses happily run on profit margins that are single digit percentages. > Only a small subset of prepared buyers will be able to take…
You’re cherry-picking stats without offering a counter-argument, as if they alone dismantle the whole of the argument. > A rather small part of the economy relies on high long term returns on housing. Directly, yes, but don’t forget the wider array of businesses dependent upon this minority to survive: hardware stores, contractors, many tradespersons, mortgage companies, real estate agents, brokers, closers, lawyers,…
> Directly, yes, but don’t forget the wider array of businesses dependent upon this minority to survive: hardware stores, contractors, many tradespersons, mortgage companies, real estate agents, brokers, closers, lawyers, and more, all of whom get paid/earn less if housing prices come down in the short term (until theoretical volume makes up for the drop of individual transaction values).
These parties mainly reply on home construction, renovation, or just home sales. None of those things require housing as an investment to have returns near equities. Home builders will build homes even at lower levels of price growth, as they did in earlier decades. In fact we'd see more construction but for regulation. Really only lenders and agents/brokers are taking a big hit if home prices drop. Builders would probably net out just fine because home prices and land value are so closely linked.
> It’s a wider web that shores up a market valued at ~$50tn. That’s hardly a minority.
You're mistakenly quoting the total asset value of all US housing, the US has a GDP of $30tn. Home building accounted for ~$0.8tn last year. Home building, sales, and associated industries account for about 15% of GDP. Higher supply and therefor lower prices could easily net out to a similar amount while freeing up more money for other uses by consumers. The economy isn't zero-sum and high housing costs are drags on productivity in other areas. This is pretty well established.
> Taking those numbers at face value means a full 13% to 20% aren’t purchasing a home to live in them, which is problematic in a housing crisis.
You should take those numbers at face value because they come from FRED, and you can verify them. Most of the 13% who are investors are buy a single building to then rent out. Some people prefer to rent rather than buy, and some prefer to rent a house rather than an apartment. The solution to a housing crisis remains more supply.
> Local ones can vary substantially,
No one argued otherwise, but it's useful that have a macro figure as a benchmark. It also may surprise you to learn the Texas has about the 5th highest share of institutional purchasers[1] while seeing prices fall in Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston all at once. So the data doesn't align with your expectations.
> it ignores demographic data to make the case that somehow a full third of the country simply doesn’t want to own a home.
I said no such thing. It's just roughly the norm for many years[2] and has never fallen below 62% or gone above 69%[3] for as long as stats have been kept. It's a useful stat for framing the discussion. IMHO we should be more concerned about the rent burden for the other ~30% and should build more to alleviate that problem.
>Don’t come in here to blindly spout numbers without a competing or complimenting narrative of your own.
Here's the competing narrative, you're spouting populist crap about a subject where you had literally 0 grasp of the actual fact, so I gave you some of them as a start.
[1] https://www.axios.com/local/dallas/2025/02/12/investors-stil...
[2] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/USHOWN
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeownership_in_the_United_St...
Re: What happens when housing prices go down?
#316Earlier quoted context omitted.
> On the other hand, if prices come down then the broader economic engine will grow ornery and stagnate A rather small part of the economy relies on high long term returns on housing. You can build homes and sell them for rather small margins and that's good business. Many types of businesses happily run on profit margins that are single digit percentages. > Only a small subset of prepared buyers will be able to take…
> A rather small part of the economy relies on high long term returns on housing. Uh, my dude, real estate is the #1 sector in the Los Angeles and San Francisco economies...
Re: What happens when housing prices go down?
#317Earlier quoted context omitted.
On balance, I think Strong Towns has done a lot of good, but in terms of organizing on the ground, I think the two large YIMBY organizations are better at equipping people to make change in their communities: * https://yimbyaction.org/ * https://welcomingneighbors.us/ I happily read and share a lot of Strong Towns content - they do put out a lot of good stuff despite the occasional dud. But in terms of learning how t…
Doing good stuff and improving cities is not a contest. No organisation can do it all, but if we work together we can do a lot!
Re: What happens when housing prices go down?
#318Where i live, NIMBYs just killed an ADU ordinance and were screaming just as loudly and about all the same things they would have if you were replacing their grandma's cottage with a high rise. They can't be rationed with. Social housing is the only thing that will really work.
no, you just strip NIMBY's of their power. I frankly don't give a shit about grandma's opinion if the owner of the land wants to put a highrise there.
Re: What happens when housing prices go down?
#319Earlier quoted context omitted.
by all means, go invest in a REIT whose logline is, "We make money when land values go down!" How exactly would they be building housing in such a scenario? And why wouldn't an investor interested in this simply short real estate instead? Does this illuminate for you that you are right, short term isn't related, but you are wrong, and the truth is surely prices dropping is bad for investing in building houses?
You seem to be ignoring that once land values reach some kind of floor it will be entirely sensible to build houses. Land values going up leads to FOMO, and going down leads to the reverse of FOMO, IE fear that the bottom hasn't been reached. Clearly it is correct to short, but short positions expire - they are definitionally short term. That said, the behavior is pretty expected: the current operators are operating…
Re: What happens when housing prices go down?
#320Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also no discussion of interest rates - I bought my house just a few years ago at just under 3%, today I would be paying more than 6% - I couldn't afford the payments if I refinanced. I believe that interest rates are the primary driver of less construction: people who want to buy can't afford to unless they downsize.
The whole point of high interest rates is to get your economy unaddicted to cheap money and force economic efficiency. This is why Trump is so angry about high interest rates and has threatened to fire powell again and again over it.
No, the point of high interest rates is to slow inflation; its part of the Fed’s thermostatic response to changes in the employment and inflation landscape.
It’s not an swift radical ideological change from the same Fed board with largely the same members that also implemented low rates not long ago. Its changed external conditions leading to the same kind of response the Fed tends to make to the same kind of condition changes historically.