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Can Software Be Durable?

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Re: Can Software Be Durable?

#31

Post by al_borland »

thom wrote: post #13
tertle950 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain how a set of instructions for a computer can "wear out" and "require maintenance", Word 2007 still writes documents fine enough for me

https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-26/p...

Security vulnerabilities only really matter if you're going to have the system online.

George R.R. Martin still writes using WordStar 4.0 in DOS.

I remember reading a news story years ago about a guy who brought a vintage Mac from the 80s into the Apple Store to see if it could be a little faster. He had been using it for his accounting (or something) for the past 30 years.

Air gapped systems like these, with some degree of physical security, are pretty safe.

Re: Can Software Be Durable?

#32

Post by poisonborz »

scarface_74 wrote: post #27
poisonborz wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software is and ideally must always be a hammer. It is only since the last 15 years that monopolist platforms try to trick us believing they are not.

The last 15 years was 2010. I’ve been in the industry since 1996 and programming as a hobbyist since 1986. Computers change, operating systems change. It’s not like I was using the original AppleWorks 3.0 on my Apple //e in 2010, or ClarisWorks from 1996 on my LCII. While you can still buy Microsoft Office once and use it “forever”, I much prefer the $129 a year, 5 users deal with 1GB of online storage per user and e…

I reflect on this as a user: I've been a Windows user since around 1996, and most of my workflow is unchanged, I still use the ~same software (new versions of course, but those old versions would mostly still run). This could be even more true for Linux. Apple had a wilder ride, but you can always emulate. This isn't about user experience, more about a mindset, that newer generation seems to tragically forget. Once you buy a service, you give up control and ownership. Same way how artists, works and prices constantly change on streaming platforms. On the surface it seems easier, but...

For your example, Microsoft can alter that price any time it sees fit, discontinue platforms you use, alter the interface drastically or cut a crucial feature in tomorrow's update... I wouldn't cope with such, and am sorry for those who must.

Re: Can Software Be Durable?

#33

Post by bullen »

C and Java are the most durable in different ways.

- C gives you the least likely to be broken by evolution of OSes without added effort, because they need backwards compatibility.

- Java will be even more durable as it can be implemented/fixed after you compile your software. I ran my games compiled 20 years ago on a Risc-V computer flawlessly = not a single glitch! That said it requires JVM efforts to be maintained.

Oracle is heading the wrong direction in every aspect (removing fundamental features like sandbox without a clear path to replacement), but the bytecode standard will prevail, ahead of clones like C# and WASM.

That said if you make a VM why not have it JiT/AoT on all 3 bytecodes?

Either way the JVM is the final emulator, as long as it's maintained.

Re: Can Software Be Durable?

#34

Post by mamcx »

You need to answer this from many directions:

* Hardware * Network * Storage * Electricity

Before go to software, because if the hardware break then what?

After it, you need an OS where you can be certain don't depend on the cloud or phone home ever, then after that you probably need a decent set of:

* Solid programing lang: Like Rust * Or very barebones: Like C * A RDBMS like sqlite

Set of tooling like code editor, image, etc

Re: Can Software Be Durable?

#35

Post by scarface_74 »

poisonborz wrote: post #32
scarface_74 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The last 15 years was 2010. I’ve been in the industry since 1996 and programming as a hobbyist since 1986. Computers change, operating systems change. It’s not like I was using the original AppleWorks 3.0 on my Apple //e in 2010, or ClarisWorks from 1996 on my LCII. While you can still buy Microsoft Office once and use it “forever”, I much prefer the $129 a year, 5 users deal with 1GB of online storage per user and e…

I reflect on this as a user: I've been a Windows user since around 1996, and most of my workflow is unchanged, I still use the ~same software (new versions of course, but those old versions would mostly still run). This could be even more true for Linux. Apple had a wilder ride, but you can always emulate. This isn't about user experience, more about a mindset, that newer generation seems to tragically forget. Once y…

And when that happens, LibreOffice, GSuite and even Apple’s iWork suite can open the documents.

Word for the Mac has been in continuos production since 1986. It made through a 16 bit MacOS (I’m yada yada yada’ing) , to 32 bit “clean” System 7 on a 68040, to classic MacOS PPC to native OS X on PPC Carbon 32 bit, to x86 64 bit OS X APIs to ARM.

Would you really want to use Windows 3.1 Word in 2025? One of the major issues with Windows is that it carries stoubf cruft from 1992.

There are for instance still a dozen ways to define a string in Windows programming depending on the API and you have to convert between them

Re: Can Software Be Durable?

#36

Post by solannou »

aristofun wrote: post #5

This is based on fundamentalky wrong assumption that software is something like a hammer or a bulldozer. Software is more like a plumbing. It a) wears out b) requires maintenance c) people maintaining it is integrated part of the whole system.

First time I read (c). That's the real truth, thank you for putting words on it! I understand way better people and places where I've worked.

Re: Can Software Be Durable?

#37

Post by ARothfusz »

You mean like the Voyager probes? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_program

Almost 50 years old now, and still sending data.

What would I change about software development now to program like they did 50 years ago? I would program like they programmed 50 years ago: assume it has to work. Assume updates will be risky and expensive. Build in failsafes and watchdogs and redundancy. Be able to replicate the build every year for 50 years. Train people to know what the logs really mean, every year for 50 years. And launch it before the bike shedding can begin!

Re: Can Software Be Durable?

#38

Post by mikewarot »

Espressosaurus wrote: post #16
tertle950 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain how a set of instructions for a computer can "wear out" and "require maintenance", Word 2007 still writes documents fine enough for me

Programs run on an operating system, the operating system runs on real hardware. The real hardware gets old, wears out, parts become difficult and perhaps even impossible to source. The operating system accumulates known vulnerabilities until it's no longer safe to connect to anything. You can work around the latter two problems with emulation, but it's never the same--display technology if nothing else is different…

The IBM 1401 is still being emulated to this day. It will never die.

I sometimes emulate a DEC VAX 11/780 running OpenVMS 7.3 on my phone.

Re: Can Software Be Durable?

#39

Post by aristofun »

OhMeadhbh wrote: post #18
aristofun wrote: post #5

This is based on fundamentalky wrong assumption that software is something like a hammer or a bulldozer. Software is more like a plumbing. It a) wears out b) requires maintenance c) people maintaining it is integrated part of the whole system.

I think it depends on the project and the programmer. Code I wrote for a Nuclear Power plant is still there. Ditto for the code I wrote for the steel mill. And you can't find ATM machines w/ my code in them easily, but you see them from time to time. Code I wrote to go into the DoD's CAC card is still there, even though the hardware went through a new Rev a decade ago, so it surprises me to say this, but "yay, java?"…

It’s just the lifecycle and halflife for nuclear reactor software is different:)

Re: Can Software Be Durable?

#40

Post by queenkjuul »

I just saw somewhere else that NASA has a manual on exactly this -- apparently there's software running on satellites 30+ years without crashing

Also those tales of C64s running HVAC systems for 30+ years. Aren't there German trains running Windows 3.1?

I guess i am making an assumption that if it's lasted 30 years, it'll just keep going.

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