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The Big Oops: Anatomy of a Thirty-Five-Year Mistake [video]

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Re: The Big Oops: Anatomy of a Thirty-Five-Year Mistake [video]

#51

Post by igouy »

db48x wrote: post #47
igouy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) 'AI Overview "No, it's not strictly true that Object-Oriented Programming (OOP) is exclusively made for large teams, but it does offer significant advantages in such environments."' 2) 'Casey Muratori -- The Big OOPs: Anatomy of a Thirty-five' Still no reliable reference.

You’ll get better results if you just search for “OOP large teams” rather than the specific phrase used in the video. You’ll get results like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming#Po... that point to specific references such as https://www.paulgraham.com/noop.html which says: Object-oriented programming is popular in big companies, because it suits the way they write software. At big companies, so…

> You’ll get better results if you just search for

That isn't what @bevyenjoyer told me to do. Moving goal posts.

That's why it's important for the OP to provide a reference, so from the beginning we are all talking about the same thing.

Re: The Big Oops: Anatomy of a Thirty-Five-Year Mistake [video]

#52

Post by MikeCampo »

_zagj wrote: post #39
zaphos wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article you linked indicates the reason for him not finishing is specifically that he didn't like his game design, which seems orthogonal to coding practices. He appears to have shipped middleware projects for RAD, and other contract work where he was not in charge of game design.

RAD was what, 15, 20 years ago? What has he released, in terms of proprietary or open source products, since then? Not just games, I mean ANYTHING. Refterm, and... what else? It's not like he was busy with his MSFT or RAD dayjob during this period.

He created Meow Hash somewhat recently and open sourced that. It's not a huge project but it's very useful. A lot of his time goes toward education, his personal projects and contract programming. Not every programmer is dedicated to releasing their own open source or commercial software. I'd bet most programmers don't. Using this as a metric to claim that he has a bad coding approach is ridiculous and laughable. Especially using Handmade Hero as an example... It really reveals your ignorance.

Also, since you care so much, let's see what you've released, smart guy. Preferably code so that we can see how talented you are.

Re: The Big Oops: Anatomy of a Thirty-Five-Year Mistake [video]

#53

Post by db48x »

igouy wrote: post #51
db48x wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ll get better results if you just search for “OOP large teams” rather than the specific phrase used in the video. You’ll get results like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming#Po... that point to specific references such as https://www.paulgraham.com/noop.html which says: Object-oriented programming is popular in big companies, because it suits the way they write software. At big companies, so…

> You’ll get better results if you just search for That isn't what @bevyenjoyer told me to do. Moving goal posts. That's why it's important for the OP to provide a reference, so from the beginning we are all talking about the same thing.

This is not moving the goal posts. Different people making the same claim may use different phrasing, and Google very much has recency bias. By searching for something slightly different we deprioritize the video we’ve already seen.

Re: The Big Oops: Anatomy of a Thirty-Five-Year Mistake [video]

#54

Post by [deleted] »

abetusk wrote: post #12

I found this talk to be great. It goes through the history of OOP and how some of the ideas for the more modern ECS were embedded in the culture at the formation of OOP in the 1960s to 1980s but somehow weren't adopted. It was pretty clear, even 20 years ago, that OOP had major problems in terms of what Casey Muratori now calls "hierarchical encapsulation" of problems. One thing that really jumped out at me was his q…

[deleted]

Re: The Big Oops: Anatomy of a Thirty-Five-Year Mistake [video]

#55

Post by Byte2Pixel »

romaniv wrote: post #23

This video contains many serious misrepresentations. For example, it makes a claim that Alan Kay only started talking about message-passing only in 2003 and that it was a kind of backpedaling due the failures of the inheritance-based OOP model. That is a laughable claim. Kay had given detailed talks discussing issues of OOP, dynamic composition and message-passing in mid-80s. Some of those talks are on YouTube: https…

What's laughable is not understanding how citations work. The year is not when message-passing was invented or used.

Re: The Big Oops: Anatomy of a Thirty-Five-Year Mistake [video]

#56

Post by hgs3 »

abetusk wrote: post #12

I found this talk to be great. It goes through the history of OOP and how some of the ideas for the more modern ECS were embedded in the culture at the formation of OOP in the 1960s to 1980s but somehow weren't adopted. It was pretty clear, even 20 years ago, that OOP had major problems in terms of what Casey Muratori now calls "hierarchical encapsulation" of problems. One thing that really jumped out at me was his q…

> It goes through the history of OOP

Unfortunately, the "history" omits prototype-based OO (Self, Io, Lua, etc.) which doesn't suffer from many of the "issues" cited by the speaker.

Re: The Big Oops: Anatomy of a Thirty-Five-Year Mistake [video]

#57

Post by igouy »

db48x wrote: post #53
igouy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’ll get better results if you just search for That isn't what @bevyenjoyer told me to do. Moving goal posts. That's why it's important for the OP to provide a reference, so from the beginning we are all talking about the same thing.

This is not moving the goal posts. Different people making the same claim may use different phrasing, and Google very much has recency bias. By searching for something slightly different we deprioritize the video we’ve already seen.

It is not moving the goal posts.

It is moving goal posts.

Re: The Big Oops: Anatomy of a Thirty-Five-Year Mistake [video]

#58

Post by Jtsummers »

db48x wrote: post #53
igouy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’ll get better results if you just search for That isn't what @bevyenjoyer told me to do. Moving goal posts. That's why it's important for the OP to provide a reference, so from the beginning we are all talking about the same thing.

This is not moving the goal posts. Different people making the same claim may use different phrasing, and Google very much has recency bias. By searching for something slightly different we deprioritize the video we’ve already seen.

It's not the same claim.

Muratori's statement (that he debunks in his talk): OO was created for teams.

Graham's statement: OO is useful for teams.

Those are distinct concepts, there's lots of evidence of statements like Graham's out there, and you've helpfully provided one. What igouy is asking for is evidence of the former claim.

Re: The Big Oops: Anatomy of a Thirty-Five-Year Mistake [video]

#59

Post by lproven »

igouy wrote: post #28

There is a transcript: click Casey's links more click Show transcript

I think you mean the machine-generated one on Youtube? It took me a few minutes of searching from your slightly scant description.

Is there any way to extract just that text into a document I can read?

Re: The Big Oops: Anatomy of a Thirty-Five-Year Mistake [video]

#60

Post by lproven »

_zagj wrote: post #31

For those unaware, Casey Muratori started a project called Handmade Hero in 2014 to build a complete game from scratch while livestreaming the entire process, with the goal of showing people not just how, but why, rolling your own engine (hence the "handmade" part) is better than relying on Unity, Unreal, or some other leaky abstraction. He even solicited pre-orders for the finished product, IIRC. Ten years later, he…

> As far as OOP goes, 45 years has shown that it makes developers highly productive

[[citation needed]]

As an external industry observer, I've seen many claims, but no actual direct evidence.

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