Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Valve confirms credit card companies pressured it to delist certain adult games

pcgamer.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 967 posts

Re: Valve confirms credit card companies pressured it to delist certain adult games

#281

Post by cogman10 »

Retric wrote: post #268
cogman10 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Threats of exposure and boycotting/blacklisting the card making room for competitors. Plenty of religious groups have the money to be able to start the "holy card". And there's plenty of businesses that'd be giddy to accept Jesus card. Consider, for example, companies like hobby lobby or Chick-fil-A banning visa and promoting Jesus card. It also wouldn't take much for such a card to advertise itself as kid friendly.…

Let’s be real, Chick-fil-A banning Visa would likely result in its bankruptcy. Starting a holy card that doesn’t work at gas stations etc is an extremely uphill battle.

> would likely result in its bankruptcy.

Maybe? Depends on how customers are sold on the mission. If it's sold as protecting children I could see a number of people ditching their cards.

> Starting a holy card that doesn’t work at gas stations etc is an extremely uphill battle.

True. It'd take a large amount of initial capital and would likely need a targeted and regional rollout with some nice incentives to the merchants.

Re: Valve confirms credit card companies pressured it to delist certain adult games

#282

Post by Aeolun »

I think it’s hilarious we allow stuff like Postal or Soldier of Fortune without a question, where the whole focus is on going crazy and murdering a whole bunch of people.

But try to show a sensual human body, instead of one that’s ripped into small pieces, and oh my god, this is going too far!

Re: Valve confirms credit card companies pressured it to delist certain adult games

#283

Post by Arrowmaster »

jhanschoo wrote: post #272
noduerme wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is it's simply a chargeback risk. It's the reason casinos and adult sites have trouble getting credit card processing and are charged much higher basic rates, even under the best of circumstances when the casino or adult site is operating entirely within the law in the jurisdictions it allows. Punters run a lot of chargebacks on casinos, and people whose spouses catch a XXX video or game on their card statem…

Does Valve actually have a high risk of chargebacks? I was under the impression that moreso than other platforms, most Valve customers would rather go through Valve's own refund system. I understand that chargebacks is supposedly the reason for adult-only platforms.

Chargebacks of legitimate purchases on most large platforms are extremely rare. Most will be from stolen cards. On most large platforms, if you start a chargeback you can expect your account to get locked. Do you want to give up your entire account just for a refund on one purchase? Luckily these large platforms typically have their own refund process.

Re: Valve confirms credit card companies pressured it to delist certain adult games

#284

Post by fragmede »

ijk wrote: post #183
maxbond wrote: post #161

Why do payment processors do stuff like this? Is there some regulation that requires them to? I get that they don't want to process fraudulent transactions, but I'd think the response to a higher percentage of fraud from some industry would be to charge them more. It doesn't make sense to me why they would be concerned about the content of games, as long as everything is legal and the parties concerned aren't subject…

One factor is the ongoing campaigns from number of moral crusading groups who lobby them to cut off payment processing for things they don't approve of. NCOSE has been working for decades on the project, and targeting credit card companies has been a successful tactic for them for a decade or so. [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/visa-and-mastercard-ar... [2] https://www.newsweek.com/why-visa-mastercard-being…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/08/01/visa-mind...

Visa being responsible for CSAM isn't a theoretical lawsuit they're afraid about. (2022)

Re: Valve confirms credit card companies pressured it to delist certain adult games

#285

Post by thaumasiotes »

morkalork wrote: post #274
SJC_Hacker wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They tried to do the same to OnlyFans, but lost that battle

Didn't onlyfans severely limit the type of content creators could make and distribute through the platform, just like valve here?

> Didn't onlyfans severely limit the type of content creators could make and distribute through the platform, just like valve here?

Well, this coverage identifies two restrictions that Valve is enforcing:

(1) No video footage of humans. Animation only.

(2) No incest.

Onlyfans clearly hasn't implemented restriction (1).

If they've implemented (2), that seems like much less of a problem as applied to onlyfans than to animated content on Steam. But even in the case of Steam, there just isn't a constituency for being pro-incest. This is the last political fight you'd want to get into.

Re: Valve confirms credit card companies pressured it to delist certain adult games

#286

Post by terminalshort »

mapt wrote: post #255
ijk wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One factor is the ongoing campaigns from number of moral crusading groups who lobby them to cut off payment processing for things they don't approve of. NCOSE has been working for decades on the project, and targeting credit card companies has been a successful tactic for them for a decade or so. [1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/12/visa-and-mastercard-ar... [2] https://www.newsweek.com/why-visa-mastercard-being…

Targeting them with what? What could possibly hold enough leverage that Visa would jeopardize their sweet gig as an ideology-neutral, essential piece of American infrastructure siphoning 1-2% off of every dollar of consumer spending?

The leverage is that the activists will potentially be able to draw the ire of the government. Visa and MC get away with absolute murder in terms of the size of the fees that they charge in the US. Most developed countries don't allow that. The US government could easily regulate them (as they already do with debit card fees) or use anti-trust law against the obvious duopoly charging exorbitant prices. Because of this situation, Visa and MC have a very strong incentive to crack down on things the government doesn't like.

The unspoken arrangement is that the government allows them to keep charging a de facto sales tax on a massive portion of the economy as long as they cooperate and de facto ban things that the government wants banned but can't ban themselves due to that pesky constitution.

Re: Valve confirms credit card companies pressured it to delist certain adult games

#287

Post by daedrdev »

jimbob45 wrote: post #207
maxbond wrote: post #161

Why do payment processors do stuff like this? Is there some regulation that requires them to? I get that they don't want to process fraudulent transactions, but I'd think the response to a higher percentage of fraud from some industry would be to charge them more. It doesn't make sense to me why they would be concerned about the content of games, as long as everything is legal and the parties concerned aren't subject…

I suspect Valve is blaming the credit card companies for something they really wanted for themselves. Steam is a big store open to everyone and you’re going to scare away a big chunk of seniors, Christians, etc with stuff like incest, ageplay, and rape just so that a small minority uses you instead of…itch.io? Better to keep the big safe names like Being a Dik and Eternum on Steam and flush the rest so that you can h…

Valve made the conscious choice to allow porn games in the first place, they knew what they were getting into imo

Re: Valve confirms credit card companies pressured it to delist certain adult games

#288

Post by supertrope »

jhanschoo wrote: post #272
noduerme wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is it's simply a chargeback risk. It's the reason casinos and adult sites have trouble getting credit card processing and are charged much higher basic rates, even under the best of circumstances when the casino or adult site is operating entirely within the law in the jurisdictions it allows. Punters run a lot of chargebacks on casinos, and people whose spouses catch a XXX video or game on their card statem…

Does Valve actually have a high risk of chargebacks? I was under the impression that moreso than other platforms, most Valve customers would rather go through Valve's own refund system. I understand that chargebacks is supposedly the reason for adult-only platforms.

Yes. Steam used to have card declines if your address did not match exactly.

Card not present was and still is higher risk than in person shopping. Now that most US customers have chip cards in their wallets fraud has shifted from in person to CNP. Digital goods are high risk because a customer could theoretically download and enjoy the digital good or save a copy and then chargeback. There's no shipping tracking number to prove delivery. Or a fraudster could go on a spending spree from the comfort of their home in another country. Adult-only games are even higher risk because a customer might have to explain to a spouse what the Steam charges were for.

Of course copy protection and the prospect of a ban of their whole Steam account blunts the most obvious customer cheating of keeping a copy and charging back. Steam games cannot be resold. Digital goods that can be easily resold are magnets for fraud. Such as cloud GPUs or international long distance calls.

Re: Valve confirms credit card companies pressured it to delist certain adult games

#289

Post by wtfwhateven »

morkalork wrote: post #274
SJC_Hacker wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They tried to do the same to OnlyFans, but lost that battle

Didn't onlyfans severely limit the type of content creators could make and distribute through the platform, just like valve here?

Yep. Even showing lactation gets you banned now.

Re: Valve confirms credit card companies pressured it to delist certain adult games

#290

Post by lxgr »

kwanbix wrote: post #264
cogman10 wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Threats of exposure and boycotting/blacklisting the card making room for competitors. Plenty of religious groups have the money to be able to start the "holy card". And there's plenty of businesses that'd be giddy to accept Jesus card. Consider, for example, companies like hobby lobby or Chick-fil-A banning visa and promoting Jesus card. It also wouldn't take much for such a card to advertise itself as kid friendly.…

What competitors? You mean a "Jesus Card" issued by Visa or Mastercard? At this point, it's basically an oligopoly. The only other real player is Amex, and they're a very distant third.

Amex isn't really a competitor, since they're both card issuer and network in one. (I believe they have a few third party issued cards these days, but it's not a significant part of their business. The same goes for Discover.)
Post reply on HN