Live data from Hacker News

CP/M creator Gary Kildall's memoirs released as free download

spectrum.ieee.org

101–110 of 151 posts

Re: CP/M creator Gary Kildall's memoirs released as free download

#101
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just like Jobs. He was the marketing and sales guy. Woz, et al. were the visionaries and engineers cranking out the product.

Jobs had a key difference from Gates - he had taste. He insisted on the injection molded case for the Apple II instead of sheet metal because he wanted it to look like a finished product. He insisted on not having lines dividing the color bands in their logo, which made it more expensive to print (but much nicer to look at). Jobs would never let something like Windows 1 escape the lab.

Jobs had control of the hardware and the software.

Gates (well, the MS programmers) had to make the software work on the PC hardware of the time (CGA/EGA video cards including non-square pixels and terrible colour palette, see https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20100625-00/?p=13...)

Re: CP/M creator Gary Kildall's memoirs released as free download

#102
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of us know what was said but I have no reason to doubt it based on the reports of his subsequent conversations with lower-level IBM executives. It probably didn’t seem like an especially consequential decision both because neither Gates nor Kildall were especially proven at that time by the standards of a Goliath like IBM and the mainframe guys were notoriously dismissive of PCs (Opel came up through S/360). I’v…

Ms Gates wasn't on the board of IBM, she was on the board of another company. That isn't nepotism. There is no way successful IBM would commit to Microsoft without a thorough vetting. Few remember, but IBM also sold CPM/86 for the PC. Kildall had his chance, and muffed it with the high price.

I specified the United Way to avoid confusion on that point. While the word nepotism originated from the Italian word for “nephew” referring to popes appointing their relatives, in modern English usage it more broadly includes friends as well. See for example the OED: “the practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives, friends, or associates, especially by giving them jobs”.

If it helps, pretend that I wrote “cronyism” instead. My point was simply that it having a friendly voice at the board level is a large potential advantage which was only available to one of the vendors. While we cannot prove anything which wasn’t written down, it seems implausible to say it couldn’t have affected things – especially in an era where personal relationships carried more weight and there was less scrutiny of these sorts of things.

Re: CP/M creator Gary Kildall's memoirs released as free download

#103
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gates had a version of DOS ready in 6 weeks, while DR was still planning DOS. MS got things going much faster.

No. He ran out and acquired 86-DOS, from Seattle Computer Products. It's easy to have something when you buy it already complete. And DR had CP/M-86.

MS still had to make modifications to Tim Patterson's 86-DOS before it shipped as PC-DOS 1.0 - source: Paul Allen's Idea Man autobiography.

Re: CP/M creator Gary Kildall's memoirs released as free download

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment said they were both on the board of United Way. Those are the votes he'd be curating. United Way, at the time, was the largest non-profit in the United States and it's mission was to funnel donations to "deserving" non-profits. Many companies, including IBM, had a payroll contribution you could make to United Way. The 'service' United Way provided was doing the research to avoid scam charities an…

The Gates family was indeed wealthy, but they were nowhere near the kind of wealth that would influence IBM. I'm sure Ms Gates was intelligent, well educated, and quite charming, but she didn't know anything about computers. IBM would have been foolish to let her decide their PC division's major decisions. I.e. I'm not buying the notion that her influence went beyond simply suggesting they check into what her son was…

Ah, I see. I wasn't clear. Let me try this: I don't think Ms Gates knew anything about computers and I don't think IBM would have picked MS-DOS over a technically superior OS. I think 3 things happened:

1) Mary mentions to John the chairman of IBM that her son has a company doing "Computer Stuff" (they were the premier BASIC on CP/M at the time, IBM was planning to have BASIC in ROM so would have been talking to Microsoft about that). John asks the team doing the PC if this "micro-soft" has an OS like CP/M or if they are just a language company.

2) The question gets back to Bill who scrambles to say "Sure we can do OSes too! we have this thing we're calling it, uh, "microsoft disk operating system" MS-DOS for short. (while they scramble to secure the rights to the OS) I expect Bill had already been talking to Seattle Computer Products about selling a version of BASIC on their 86-DOS because he was all about the hustle and he wanted it to be on every computer. He likely saw the opportunity and would have asked about licensing it as a product Microsoft could sell.

3) The PC team finds out that Gates can supply both the OS and BASIC and presents to John: "Option A: We can get BASIC from Microsoft and CP/M from Digital Research" (most popular OS and most popular language), "or option B: we can get both BASIC and an OS that is similar to CP/M from Microsoft."

I am suggesting, that given that scenario, John could have expressed a "preference" (always leave it in the hands of the team you delegated the decsion to, to decide, but you can express a preference) that they go with option B. Putting myself in his seat, I might have spun that preference as "Microsoft's OS isn't out there, but neither is CP/M for the 8086, and this way we would only have to deal with one vendor for software integration." All straight up, all above board, reasonable argument.

What I'm saying, is that in making that choice, it gave John something he could use with Mary, "Hey we're going with your son's company for the language and the OS" and she would be happy about that. I'm also saying that I would not be surprised that had a product person said "We going to be fighting headwinds with a microcomputer that doesn't run CP/M as that is the one that these small businesses are using, we really should go with CP/M-86 here." And having the chairman push back with "Why don't we do this, IBM has a good reputation for its operating systems on 'real' computers, we'll take the Microsoft product and rebrand it as 'PC DOS' and it will be an IBM thing which businesses already trust, how about that?"

Also a reasonable thing to do or choice to make. And it worked out for them and Mary appreciated John's support in helping her son's business. Which was helpful to John as a board member of United way. So two for one, IBM gets an OS and John gets a favor credit with Mary.

But I also point out that this is rampant speculation and no more accurate than a large language model that uses statistical likelihoods to write sentences. :-) The only other bit of information I can add is that I was working for IBM the summer of 1977 as an intern, and my boss knew I was trying to save up enough money to buy a CP/M computer so he gave me a secret peak at how IBM was going to take over the microcomputer market so maybe I should wait. He showed me an unreleased product, the IBM 5100 running BASIC, it had a built in screen. It was a computer by engineers, for engineers, and no one would buy anything else :-).

Even young me knew that was not gonna fly :-). But the IBM of that time was both predatory (they were being sued left and right it seemed) and cheap, and they thought they were the smartest people in the world. When I went to the PC presentation they gave us in 1981 at USC I thought, "Hmm, not a 5100, but a bunch of their own software with third party chips." That was very on brand for them.

Re: CP/M creator Gary Kildall's memoirs released as free download

#105
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instead of only people such as Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. At least gates could program...

At least Jobs could design a product…

Both of them screwed over early employees wrt company shares.

Jobs and Apple board didn't give stock options/shares to some early employees, Woz stepped in to make up for some of the shortfall. see https://apple.fandom.com/wiki/Woz_Plan

Gates argued with Paul Allen about the percentage of company ownership. IMHO, Allen didn't like confrontation so Allen acquiesced to Gates benefit.

Re: CP/M creator Gary Kildall's memoirs released as free download

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment said they were both on the board of United Way. Those are the votes he'd be curating. United Way, at the time, was the largest non-profit in the United States and it's mission was to funnel donations to "deserving" non-profits. Many companies, including IBM, had a payroll contribution you could make to United Way. The 'service' United Way provided was doing the research to avoid scam charities an…

Paul Allen states his version of the IBM selection of OS for their IBM PC in his autobiography, Idea Man. see my comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43591941 for the long version. Hopefully short version. IBM went to Microsoft (MS) for languages for the new PC. IBM asked if MS could provide an OS. As per unwritten agreement, MS told IBM to go to Digital Research (DRI) for an OS. Whatever happened at DRI,…

I can confirm that IBM has always been cheap in their dealings with suppliers. (and in their acquisitions)

Re: CP/M creator Gary Kildall's memoirs released as free download

#107
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 45 years of writing software, I've never before seen anyone call tokenizing a BASIC program compilation. It's decidedly not common usage.

I've been writing compilers for 45 years now. Tokenizing is a big part of every textbook on compilers. To resolve expressions (which are recursive in nature) it would have had to do more than just tokenizing. While this isn't hard at all, it's "parsing" which is also qualifying it as a compiler. I.e. the basic program was lexing and parsing. It's a compiler. A very simple one, sure, but a compiler.

Compilers generate code in another, usually lower level language that is executed by reading all of the code that could be executed first. Interpreters (such as the BASIC interpreter we are discussing here) read only that part of the code that gets executed and typically call functions rather than that they generate code (never mind JIT). Tokenization prior to interpretation is technically an optional step (it's just an efficiency boost) and is not normally confused with compilation even if there are some superficial similarities.

You of all people should know this, come on.

Re: CP/M creator Gary Kildall's memoirs released as free download

#108
post #82
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's their call to make. They feel the chapters didn't represent their father and, as a draft, I would expect the later parts to have been less revised and to be in a rougher shape.

>It's their call to make. Why? Because of possession? That's a crummy reason. Art is supposed to be upheld as on par with 'divine creation' by those that respect it. Literature, being art, isn't different. in other words, we knew the Ecce Homo restoration was botched because we were able to compare it to the original piece.. sadly we won't ever have the luxury of knowing what kind of hatchet was taken to the memoir a…

> Why? Because of possession? That's a crummy reason.

Because it their parent.

Re: CP/M creator Gary Kildall's memoirs released as free download

#109
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ms Gates wasn't on the board of IBM, she was on the board of another company. That isn't nepotism. There is no way successful IBM would commit to Microsoft without a thorough vetting. Few remember, but IBM also sold CPM/86 for the PC. Kildall had his chance, and muffed it with the high price.

I remember the very high price of CP/M-86. If that was because of DRI's pricing and not something IBM did, then indeed that made the choice simple, in Kildall's disfavour.

As I recall, Kildall thought that CP/M-86 was much better than MSDOS, and people would pay the higher price. He was unable to make the case, though.

I tried CP/M-86, and found it to be different, but not better.

Re: CP/M creator Gary Kildall's memoirs released as free download

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original comment said they were both on the board of United Way. Those are the votes he'd be curating. United Way, at the time, was the largest non-profit in the United States and it's mission was to funnel donations to "deserving" non-profits. Many companies, including IBM, had a payroll contribution you could make to United Way. The 'service' United Way provided was doing the research to avoid scam charities an…

Paul Allen states his version of the IBM selection of OS for their IBM PC in his autobiography, Idea Man. see my comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43591941 for the long version. Hopefully short version. IBM went to Microsoft (MS) for languages for the new PC. IBM asked if MS could provide an OS. As per unwritten agreement, MS told IBM to go to Digital Research (DRI) for an OS. Whatever happened at DRI,…

I'd trust Allen for being a credible source.

When IBM returned to MS, Gates decided that opportunity had dropped in his lap again, and this time he wasn't going to turn away from it.

Post reply on HN