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Ask HN: Is Google still a cool place to work?

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Re: Ask HN: Is Google still a cool place to work?

#21
post #5

I have always preferred micro companies because of the freedom to drive the chiefdom from your humble developer positions. I remember an article about an Apple engineer developing first Mac to run on X86 architecture. This is an example of micro company that Apple has always been and I doubt any company, including Google, can match it.

Apple have 60,000 employees now. They are not a micro company any more - why would they be able to feel like one? Obviously some engineers would have worked on the original x86 Macs, just as plenty of engineers at Google worked on the original Android software - that doesn't make it feel like a small company.

"They are not a micro company any more - why would they be able to feel like one?"

It can be done, but it takes a lot of work (and by "work" I mean "the pointy-hairs leaving the engineers the hell alone". That seems to require a huge effort in some companies.

The old-school name for this is "skunk works".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Skunkworks

Re: Ask HN: Is Google still a cool place to work?

#22

Google's problem is that most of the work is shitty legacy maintenance. If you can get on one of their machine-learning or research projects and have a good manager, you'll have a fantastic experience (and I say this as a notorious Google detractor). Take the offer seriously but negotiate extremely hard on project allocation because it's really hard to transfer to a good project if you start in the wrong place, so yo…

> ETA: Google would be awesome if it adopted the Valve culture where employees are trusted to allocate their own time, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

I don't see how that's supposed to work. From what I understand it's too big and clunky. A lot of dpts don't even know others exist, some groups are just a product bought off other companies and kept in tact.

The way I see it's too big and diverse to be able to have such a structure.

Re: Ask HN: Is Google still a cool place to work?

#23

Google's problem is that most of the work is shitty legacy maintenance. If you can get on one of their machine-learning or research projects and have a good manager, you'll have a fantastic experience (and I say this as a notorious Google detractor). Take the offer seriously but negotiate extremely hard on project allocation because it's really hard to transfer to a good project if you start in the wrong place, so yo…

Do not, under any circumstances, take this guy's advice or in fact listen to anything he says. Anyone who was an engineer during his brief tenure is well aware of just how much he self-destructed and how much he's living in a fantasy world. The only problem here is that to an uninformed observer some of what he says looks plausible.

As for the OP's problem: a lot depends on your options, your experience, what you're hoping to achieve, what you'd like to work on, what office this would be in, etc. There are tons of variables.

Speaking as a current Googler, it is a fantastic place to work but it's not suited to everyone.

tl;dr it depends.

Re: Ask HN: Is Google still a cool place to work?

#24

Google's problem is that most of the work is shitty legacy maintenance. If you can get on one of their machine-learning or research projects and have a good manager, you'll have a fantastic experience (and I say this as a notorious Google detractor). Take the offer seriously but negotiate extremely hard on project allocation because it's really hard to transfer to a good project if you start in the wrong place, so yo…

Since this comment is currently at the top, I feel I have to add that michaelochurch's overall Google experience was an extreme outlier, as is well known internally at the company.

Re: Ask HN: Is Google still a cool place to work?

#25

Google's problem is that most of the work is shitty legacy maintenance. If you can get on one of their machine-learning or research projects and have a good manager, you'll have a fantastic experience (and I say this as a notorious Google detractor). Take the offer seriously but negotiate extremely hard on project allocation because it's really hard to transfer to a good project if you start in the wrong place, so yo…

"most of the work is shitty legacy maintenance"

LOL no. Stop projecting.

Re: Ask HN: Is Google still a cool place to work?

#26
post #23

Google's problem is that most of the work is shitty legacy maintenance. If you can get on one of their machine-learning or research projects and have a good manager, you'll have a fantastic experience (and I say this as a notorious Google detractor). Take the offer seriously but negotiate extremely hard on project allocation because it's really hard to transfer to a good project if you start in the wrong place, so yo…

Do not, under any circumstances, take this guy's advice or in fact listen to anything he says. Anyone who was an engineer during his brief tenure is well aware of just how much he self-destructed and how much he's living in a fantasy world. The only problem here is that to an uninformed observer some of what he says looks plausible. As for the OP's problem: a lot depends on your options, your experience, what you're…

I don't have time to respond to this ad hominem smear. Yes, there was some blowback related to my attempt to save a failing product. I learned a lesson and moved on.

I'm not anti-Google. I want the OP to have a great Google experience and to do that he needs to negotiate hard on project allocation.

Re: Ask HN: Is Google still a cool place to work?

#27
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the best book on technical interviews for places like Google: http://www.amazon.com/Cracking-Coding-Interview-Programming-...

Does it just prepare for code interviews, or do you actually learn something useful with it, besides getting a job?

It is for interviews. You should already know the useful stuff for your job. The best you can do that is relevant to both fronts is

Work through CLRS algorithms book

Practice explaining technical ideas in spoken conversation.

Re: Ask HN: Is Google still a cool place to work?

#28
Although I'm not an employee, whether someone thinks it's lost lustre or not, is rather irrelevant. What's probably more important, is whether it's cool place to work presently and in the future, and how that compares to other options.

Speaking to many xooglers, I get the impression it's awesome, and would be a great opportunity in all likelyhood.

Re: Ask HN: Is Google still a cool place to work?

#29
I've never worked for Google, but here's some thoughts on your offer. These may all be obvious to you, but for the benefit of everybody..

0. You have an opportunity of real power to shape your financial future in the small window between when an offer is made and when an offer is finalized. These negotiations commonly take a few days. In those days, your effective hourly rate for your strategizing and execution of the negotiation is far far higher than what you earn as a software engineer.

1. I hope you've taken everybody's boilerplate negotiating advice and not put yourself in a hard position over money. Did you tell them early in the process exactly what you're currently making? Or exactly what you want? If so, next time don't do that. Even if somebody tries to button you down, just finesse it a bit. "Dollar amount isn't the most important thing, yadda yadda" and ask them to give you the range they're considering to ensure you two are in the same ballpark.

2. Accept this fact: It's OK to earn 10's-of-percent and/or 10's-of-thousands of dollars more than your previous job. In fact, compared to other professions with similar skill requrements I think software engineers are underpaid as a whole and we all should work to fix that.

3. Never accept any offer on the spot. Remember that companies, even Google though certainly to a lesser extent, are making best-guesses about how much to offer somebody. There is a range there. You probably have not maxed it out on their first letter. Tell them you sleep on all big decisions and you'd call back tomorrow.

4. Ask for more of something. They have a lot of perks, but it could be options or base salary. If you cannot get them to budge in those, move on to other benefits like signing bonus, vaca time (this matters less at Google and the myriad other tech companies here that have open-ended vacation policies)

5. It's OK to give back some things (signing bonus for example) in exchange for a higher base rate, but obviously don't offer that up at first.

6. Show humanity. You're negotiating with another human. And only one of you his your own wallet on the table. Suppose for the sake of argument you've been making $110k as a mid-level engineer at a startup. That is low, but you've been there for a few years, you've earned a lot more experience. Their offer is $130k. Show humanity, something like "First, i'm thrilled (almost giggling) that you've made this offer. And we're allllmost there. Obviously it's a competitive market and when I look at where I'm at now, and my experience, well I just don't want to feel like I'm taking a step backwards. I need to do what's best for my family and my thinking is currently in the $145-150k range." This has the benefit of being true. We all do have these anxieties. You just are bringing them into the discussion.

If you ever told them you make exactly $110k then obviously you have to be a little more careful how you word this plea (and seriously, don't share that info next time, you don't have to share it). But doing what's best for your family, and a need to not feel like you're taking a step backwards, are powerful human emotions that can help you from looking like a craven opportunist. Even if your family right now is your dog and your girlfriend.

They will probably counter on something. They will NOT revoke the offer because you had the nerve to ask for more. That maybe happens in less demanding, less skilled jobs. But you're a professional making 6-figures. Having a little savvy isn't a bad thing. And if for any crazy reason they did, then you definitely did not want to work there anyway. Obviously a seed-round startup has different economic realities, but that's not who you're working with here.

I could talk for hours about this, and I also think you shoul d read a bit about basic negotiation strategy. And as always YMMV. But these general concepts have served me and my family very well.

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