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I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

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Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#551

Post by sethammons »

osigurdson wrote: post #501
sethammons wrote: post #440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in my experience, repo by "area" works the best. This usually means by team, but you don't want a team restructure to cause code relocation issues. And, yes, only when the org pressures push for it. On the flip side, we have an org with 50+ teams and our operations team is pinning for a monorepo. They are just fine with one team's push forcing N teams to have an unexpected deploy and recycling of caches, connections,…

Why do they want a mono repo though? What are the problems with the current situation.

consistent CI/CD, code discovery and sharing, and (I contend falsely) protection against backward compatibility issues.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#552

Post by est »

Orygin wrote: post #138
t43562 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I've never really understood the complaint about python packaging - building native code is not something that is ever easy to guarantee across multiple distributions and operating systems. Those native packages can be in any language and require any odd combination of tools to build. Who has truly solved that problem?

If you don't need to link C lib, you can build any combination of arch and OS for a golang program. The default tooling allows you to do so easily. If you need to link a C lib, there are ways to set it up to compile other OS (and maybe other archs).

take numpy as an example, it's gfortran mixed with C. How does cgo handle that?

And there's ffmpeg....

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#553

Post by bb88 »

stanleydrew wrote: post #188
wpm wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a silly theory that I only half joke about that docker/containers wouldn't've ever taken off as fast as it did if it didn't solve the horrible python dependency hell so well. You know something is bad when fancy chrooting is the only ergonomic way of shipping something that works. My first taste of Python was as a sysadmin, back in 2012 or so, installing a service written in Python on a server. The dependency…

> I have a silly theory that I only half joke about that docker/containers wouldn't've ever taken off as fast as it did if it didn't solve the horrible python dependency hell so well. I don't think this is a silly theory at all. The only possibly silly part is that containers specifically helped solve this problem just for python. Lots of other software systems built with other languages have "dependency hell."

Back in the early days of Redhat, rpm's didn't really have good dependency management. Yes there were rpms, yes you could download them, but getting the full dep tree was a PITA. Most people installed the full Linux distro rather than a lightweight version because of this.

Debian's apt-get was very "apt" at the time when it came out. It solved the entire issue for Debian. There was a point at which there was an apt-rpm for redhat. Yum tried to solve it for redhat, but didn't really work that well -- particularly if you needed to pin packages to certain versions.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#554

Post by bb88 »

latexr wrote: post #50

> I started to code more in Python around 6 months ago. Why? Because of AI, obviously. It’s clear (to me) that big money opportunities are all over AI these days. I find this depressing. Not only are LLMs covertly reducing our ability to think and make decisions, they’re now also making people voluntarily conform to some lower common denominator. It’s like humanity decided to stagnate at this one point in time (and w…

Eh, I just wrote a chrome extension for the first time through AI. If it automates the boring stuff for us, I'm more okay with this than not.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#555

Post by bb88 »

frollogaston wrote: post #408
acdha wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“import json” is the kind of thing which requires picking and installing libraries in batteries-not-included languages, and it’s just one of many modules which are in the standard library. That’s not a compelling basis for large projects but over the years I’ve shipped a ton of useful production code which never needed more than the stdlib and thus spent no time at all thinking about deployment or security patching.…

The official package manager is pip, it's broken, and there has been a new "permanent solution" replacement for it each year.

I don't get the python hate on here.

Pip is fine. It's been fine for at least the last 5 to 10 years.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#556

Post by [deleted] »

nickjj wrote: post #392
0xbadcafebee wrote: post #358

Maybe I'm the only one that finds Python simultaneously verbose and lacking? Either you need 500 dependencies to do something in a simple way, or you need dozens (if not hundreds) of lines to do trivial things. I avoid writing Python because there's so much bullshit to add. Much prefer Perl, I can actually get things done quickly. Python feels like programming for the sake of programming.

I have a bunch of zero dependency projects. You can get a lot done with the standard library and single file projects which you can run on most systems without needing to do anything except curl it down and run it since Python is available. For example here's a ~2k line Python project which is a command line finance income and expense tracker: https://github.com/nickjj/plutus/blob/main/src/plutus It uses about a doze…

[deleted]

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#557

Post by frollogaston »

bb88 wrote: post #555
frollogaston wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The official package manager is pip, it's broken, and there has been a new "permanent solution" replacement for it each year.

I don't get the python hate on here. Pip is fine. It's been fine for at least the last 5 to 10 years.

I don't hate Python, I use it by choice every day. This is merely a downside.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#558

Post by frollogaston »

zahlman wrote: post #528
frollogaston wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The official package manager is pip, it's broken, and there has been a new "permanent solution" replacement for it each year.

The rest of the thread makes it clear that you expect a "package manager" to do more things than Pip does. Pip is focused on installing the packages, not really "managing" them. The problem is that there are quite a few different takes on what "management" should entail. That's where all the alternatives are coming from.

Whichever you call it, at the end of the day it's more common to encounter dep problems in Python than with NodeJS, Rust, etc.

But also, ignoring things pip isn't meant to do like version management and just focusing on installing, pip's default of installing to some unclear system location was always confusing, particularly when Py2 vs 3 was a thing.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#559

Post by 0xbadcafebee »

const_cast wrote: post #519
mystifyingpoi wrote: post #382

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you share an example, where Perl is quicker to use and more powerful?

Using it as a replacement for Bash. No environment required, Perl is already installed on every computer on earth. Perl is generally quicker to write for string-oriented workflows - which is what Bash is. Regex is quick and easy. Perl falls apart when you need structure and even small projects. For short scripts meant to do what you would use Bash for, it's a godsend. Safer, more portable, less friction.

Perl does not fall apart when you need structure, it's OO. In fact it's better structured than Python (hello, PyPI? It's CPAN calling, we wanted to let you know hierarchical packages are a thing). If you mean "forcing people to program in an opinionated manner", it doesn't do that by default, but that's what linters and formatters are for (like the ones Python programmers use)

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#560

Post by frollogaston »

degamad wrote: post #520
frollogaston wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hope they make uv default then. It's nice, but I have to separately create a project with it, and regular python commands don't work with it, both of which go back to it not being default. But even that won't fix all the old projects.

node is not the default in js projects either, it's just the currently most popular manager. Old JS projects are their own bundle of fun.

Basically is by now. This is more of a recent thing for frontend JS, but NodeJS (which is more directly comparable to Python) had npm I think from the start.

Those browser JS libs installed via tags though, honestly were pretty convenient in a way.

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