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I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

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Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#71

Post by timeon »

wiseowise wrote: post #13
reedf1 wrote: post #5

> Python has done a good job of hiding its legacy ugliness (such as __init__, __new__, and similar aberrations), swettening its syntax to accomodate developers with good taste. What exactly is the problem with __init__ or __new__? @dataclass is very nice syntactic sugar, but are we arguing here that having access to initializer/allocator/constructor dunder methods is "legacy ugliness"? This is the core of pythonic bu…

Bizarre is that you don’t consider it ugly. Kotlin: constructor is either part of class definition or keyword constructor. Ruby: initialize JS: constructor Python: ______new______, _______init_______ Literally this meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/three-headed-dragon

Can you elaborate bit what is the problem here? Is it shape of the characters or something else?

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#72

Post by acdha »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #18
reedf1 wrote: post #5

> Python has done a good job of hiding its legacy ugliness (such as __init__, __new__, and similar aberrations), swettening its syntax to accomodate developers with good taste. What exactly is the problem with __init__ or __new__? @dataclass is very nice syntactic sugar, but are we arguing here that having access to initializer/allocator/constructor dunder methods is "legacy ugliness"? This is the core of pythonic bu…

Probably the system of giving special meaning to what are otherwise ordinary identifiers. __ isn't a reserved keyword in Python or anything. But there's a set of conventions you're supposed to follow when naming methods and attributes, and they're visibly artificial. It would be cleaner to make the features that are a special part of the language definition also a special part of the language syntax instead of runnin…

> You don't think the Python way is worse?

Have you considered how much familiarity might shape your reaction to the two? Both are specific patterns with arbitrary restrictions which new learners have to internalize, and that’s a fairly advanced task most people won’t hit until they are familiar with the language syntax.

Here’s a counter argument: the Python methods are normal method declarations whereas C++ developers have to learn that “operator=“ means something different than what “operator =“ (or any other assignment statement) would mean, and that this is the only context where you can use those reserved symbols in method names.

To be clear, I don’t think either of these is a big deal - the concepts and usage are harder to learn than the declaration syntax – but I think it’s incredibly easy to conflate familiarity with ease of acquisition for things like this.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#73

Post by tgv »

pyman wrote: post #45

From what I was told, Python was originally seen as a Swiss Army knife for sysadmins. It started gaining more traction when Canonical adopted it as the main language for Ubuntu 4.10 in 2004. Then, in 2005, Guido van Rossum was hired by Google to work on Google Cloud. That opened the door for wider adoption in academia, since Python had strong math libraries and integrated well with tools researchers were already usin…

Python's success is entirely due to entry-level programming courses. They all switched to Python, because you have to explain less. I don't think I heard about web servers in Python before 2012. I suppose a 2005 computer wouldn't be able to serve a Python backend smoothly.

PHP's popularity isn't really from 2005-2006. It was popular at the end of the 90s, and it looks like JS as much as it looks like a potato.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#74

Post by tovazm »

latexr wrote: post #41
blitzar wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont think python is pre-installed on macOS now. (uv has replaced it for me) Edit: Unlike older versions of macOS that came with Python 2.7 pre-installed, newer macOS versions (Catalina and later) no longer include Python pre-installed.

Technically macOS doesn’t come with Python pre-installed, but it does provide you with a simple path to do it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44580198 The removal was in Monterey. Catalina and its successor Big Sur very much still had it. Catalina was the one that removed 32-bit support.

I think they realised the security implications,

you could just take a random person macbook, open the terminal and launch python3 -m http.server 3000 --directory ~

then on the local network you could download all his files

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#75

Post by vrighter »

dmz73 wrote: post #65
DataDaoDe wrote: post #48

Python has done an impressive job over the years of making steady robust improvements. The typing and tooling has just gotten better and better. There are still plenty of problems though, imho async is still a much bigger pain than it should be (compared to other runtimes with a very nice experience like go or elixir, even dotnet has been less pain in my experience). Overall I like python, but it mainly boils down to…

I don't know what I am doing wrong but nothing written in Python has ever worked for me. I download the .py repo from from github or wherever and try to run it - errors. I try to install missing libraries pip this and that - errors. I battle fixing endless error with dependencies and when the .py finally runs - errors - wrong version of whatever library or wrong patch of this or that or the "production ready" .py doe…

This is exactly my experience too. I avoid python software like the plague, because even when it does work, I can not rely on it continuing to work when python gets updated on my system.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#76

Post by acdha »

CoolCold wrote: post #55

> Not only because the syntax is more human-friendly, but also because the Python interpreter is natively integrated in all Unix distros That's kind of very optimistic evaluation - literally anything beyond "import json" will likely lead you into the abyss of virtual envs. Running something created with say Python 3.13.x on Ubuntu 22.04 or even 24.04 (LTSs) / Rocky 9 and the whole can of worms opened. things like vir…

“import json” is the kind of thing which requires picking and installing libraries in batteries-not-included languages, and it’s just one of many modules which are in the standard library. That’s not a compelling basis for large projects but over the years I’ve shipped a ton of useful production code which never needed more than the stdlib and thus spent no time at all thinking about deployment or security patching.

Also, it’s not the 2000s any more. Using venv to isolate application installs is not very hard anymore and there have been decent package managers for a long time.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#77

Post by theshrike79 »

tgv wrote: post #73
pyman wrote: post #45

From what I was told, Python was originally seen as a Swiss Army knife for sysadmins. It started gaining more traction when Canonical adopted it as the main language for Ubuntu 4.10 in 2004. Then, in 2005, Guido van Rossum was hired by Google to work on Google Cloud. That opened the door for wider adoption in academia, since Python had strong math libraries and integrated well with tools researchers were already usin…

Python's success is entirely due to entry-level programming courses. They all switched to Python, because you have to explain less. I don't think I heard about web servers in Python before 2012. I suppose a 2005 computer wouldn't be able to serve a Python backend smoothly. PHP's popularity isn't really from 2005-2006. It was popular at the end of the 90s, and it looks like JS as much as it looks like a potato.

With python you can just go: 'print "hello, world!"' and that's a full-ass program

You run it by saying `python hello.py`.

Compare that to the amount of crap you need(ed) with 2005 Java just to have something running.

The shittiness of ActivePython and generally getting python to run on Windows were a bit of a hurdle, but still it was easier than the competition

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#78

Post by Mawr »

drewcoo wrote: post #25
andrewstuart wrote: post #14

Said with a note of surprise? Made me think this is probably normally a Ruby developer indoctrinated against Python. The article doesn’t seem to say what they have come from.

> Ruby developer indoctrinated against Python Ruby devs think about code differently. Like Perl, they embrace TIMTOWTDI. https://perl.fandom.com/wiki/TIMTOWTDI Also, there's a pride in writing elegant code as opposed to following "Pythonic" conventions. Excellence is not conformity. I use Python a lot more often now because it's seen as simpler and more approachable and easier to force compliance. I miss Ruby.

> Like Perl, they embrace TIMTOWTDI.

Yeah, and it's the wrong approach. Of course, you can have whatever preference you want, but in terms of engineering, it's plain wrong.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#79

Post by brabel »

timeon wrote: post #71
wiseowise wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bizarre is that you don’t consider it ugly. Kotlin: constructor is either part of class definition or keyword constructor. Ruby: initialize JS: constructor Python: ______new______, _______init_______ Literally this meme: https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/three-headed-dragon

Can you elaborate bit what is the problem here? Is it shape of the characters or something else?

Amazing. If you need to ask this question I am guessing you have spent too long with Python . No other language uses this underscore madness for special methods or otherwise. Because it’s just , I don’t know a more appropriate word for it , stupid.

Re: I'm switching to Python and actually liking it

#80

Post by Mawr »

Just a small note on the code in the linked script:

    API_KEY = os.environ.get("YOUTUBE_API_KEY")
    CHANNEL_ID = os.environ.get("YOUTUBE_CHANNEL_ID")
    
    if not API_KEY or not CHANNEL_ID:
        print("Missing YOUTUBE_API_KEY or YOUTUBE_CHANNEL_ID.")
        exit(1)
Presenting the user with "Missing X OR Y" when there's no reason that OR has to be there massively frustrates the user for the near zero benefit of having one fewer if statement.

    if not API_KEY:
        print("Missing YOUTUBE_API_KEY.")
        exit(1)
    if not CHANNEL_ID:
        print("Missing YOUTUBE_CHANNEL_ID.")
        exit(1)
Way better user experience, 0.00001% slower dev time.
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