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How bad are childhood literacy rates?

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Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#41

Post by nmarinov »

ryao wrote: post #31
nmarinov wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I get where you're coming from and I'd agree if it was math or physics or chemistry but I'm not so sure about languages. I learned English as a second language and while I did have formal lessons, the most bang for buck learning came from stuff like Huckleberry Finn and forums and random songs (especially hip hop) and cartoons. Not because they are "good english" but precisely because they are "bad english" but…

> it's English as used by native speakers I do not speak that way and I do not know anyone else who speaks that way. That said, being relatively average at English as a student because I was constantly confused by the literature I was forced to read did negatively affect my test scores.

Well yeah, it's not everyday English maybe but it's still English. By that I mean that those are examples of which and how many of the rules in the system can be broken or let's say - creatively interpreted and still fit in that system.

"bad english" by expert native speakers is different than "bad english" from poor native speakers is different than "bad english" from still-learning non-speakers. IMO the first two both benefit your understanding of the language and help with reading comprehension because they expand your personal knowledge base of how many ways you can convey the same meaning in English with different words, order, grammar, etc and that is crucial for a flexible language like English.

But your reply reminded me of a friend that's very good with languages but only languages that have a rigid structure - he's from the UK but he struggles with English yet he's amazing in German and Chinese and several others I don't remember.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#42

Post by mrangle »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #8

Maybe reading books is less important than ever, and the kids are adapting to the new world. I am reminded of this xkcd, which I just realized Im about a decade behind on. https://xkcd.com/1414/

Reading could be less important if reaching one's IQ potential is less important. The content doesn't matter much, aside from basic literature references that constitute a part of English literacy. Though, relatively more complex style and a wider range of vocabulary helps. But a volume of reading is indisputably a developmental accelerant. At least up until the brain slows its development in the mid-twenties.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#43

Post by yorwba »

jdpigeon wrote: post #28
mensetmanusman wrote: post #7

total parent hours spent per child tracks this, no change in literacy when this is controlled for.

Hmm, it seems that time spent with children has actually been increasing https://www.weforum.org/stories/2021/01/parents-children-par...

That article doesn't cover the period of the decline in reading scores (peak was 2013).

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#44

Post by ddq »

smogcutter wrote: post #25

For my sins, I teach middle school. There’s plenty of different angles on this, but I’d like to highlight a recent one that may not immediately occur to people here without young children: COVID retirements hit the elementary schools particularly hard. Teaching high school on zoom is one thing, now imagine teaching 3rd. So the veteran elementary teachers retired or quit, and there’s no adequate pipeline to replace th…

This to me is the most urgent moral issue of the day: our active stunting of our children's development. Our collective misguided and counterproductive approach to pedagogy does not cultivate a learning mindset but rather stifles children's enormous natural aptitude for exploratory play. We are doing it wrong and we know it. The curriculum we use isn't worth paying minimum wage to teach.

It could be different. It must be. We have role models to imitate, better methods to follow, resources and tools galore. What is needed now is organization toward common purpose. How does the internet bystander locate effective organizations to disrupt the march of folly? This is a situation where the pilot has gone mad and we must seize control of the aircraft but are too paralyzed by social forces to act.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#45

Post by ryao »

mrangle wrote: post #39
ryao wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is my first language. However, I had an undiagnosed learning disability until college. That said, to name one example, I do not think an understanding of adverbs versus adjectives can develop effectively if one is constantly exposed to people using adjectives as adverbs. It causes a loss of nuance that comes back to bite people, especially when it causes friction with those who know better. I remember in the…

To be generous, what this meant is either that you were below the reading level for the book or you misunderstand the core skill of reading and using style in the English language. Reading and understanding when rules are broken leads to knowing when they can be. We don't skip Shakespeare because the language is funny and archaic. Reading these authors is both a part of style and content literacy for the English lang…

There is a difference between understanding a book’s contents and being able to read the book without having it rewrite your understanding of the English language such that you have no idea what is correct and incorrect because your grasp on that was tenuous in the first place. Children are expected to avoid being rewritten at stages where they are extremely impressionable and are easily rewritten and then they are blamed for it. It is fairly sadistic thing to do to children.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#46

Post by donsupreme »

smogcutter wrote: post #25

For my sins, I teach middle school. There’s plenty of different angles on this, but I’d like to highlight a recent one that may not immediately occur to people here without young children: COVID retirements hit the elementary schools particularly hard. Teaching high school on zoom is one thing, now imagine teaching 3rd. So the veteran elementary teachers retired or quit, and there’s no adequate pipeline to replace th…

At some AI going to be the best teacher for any children

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#47

Post by ryao »

mrangle wrote: post #37
ryao wrote: post #13

When I was young, I was amazed at how they would try to teach us English grammar and spelling, then have us read books like Huckleberry Finn that undid 6 months to a year worth of English language education. When you are young and you do not really a firm grasp of the right way to do things, being forced to spend substantial time “reading” books that show the wrong way is counterproductive. It was like having a const…

I disagree. Reading style ("flaws") is a major part of literacy. Even for people with learning disabilities. If you aren't on the reading level for a specific book, that's another issue.

Reading level is ambiguous here. Are you referring to whether someone can read the book, comprehend what it says and discuss it, or whether they can do all of that without having their understanding of the English language rewritten? Young children can easily do the former if you do not mind the latter happening. However, it is rather sadistic to put them in such situations and then expect them to pass exams for proper English. It is even more sadistic to do this to them, when they are at a point in their lives where they still need to gain a firm grasp of what is correct, such that it affects their test scores and can affect their prospects for getting into good universities.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#48

Post by AngryData »

chimpansteve wrote: post #20
ryao wrote: post #13

When I was young, I was amazed at how they would try to teach us English grammar and spelling, then have us read books like Huckleberry Finn that undid 6 months to a year worth of English language education. When you are young and you do not really a firm grasp of the right way to do things, being forced to spend substantial time “reading” books that show the wrong way is counterproductive. It was like having a const…

Is English your first language? If it isn't, I completely agree with you. However if it is, then I would make the argument that it's exactly the right way to teach it, particularly to young people. As you point out, it's a very fluid language with a lot of rules that are completely arbitrary. As a native speaker, it's more important getting to grips with the, I dunno what we'd call it on here, pseudocode rather than…

I don't know if I would agree that how we teach it now is really the best way, but I overall agree with you that in order to really learn english you need an extremely wide and varied exposure to english in order to learn all the "rule breaking" and make english across the world and through time intelligible.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#49

Post by trod1234 »

SamPatt wrote: post #11

This seems bad on its face, but I wonder if this is specific to reading comprehension or to all comprehension? If our society moved from text to video as the primary way to transmit information, would our ability to communicate and comprehend the world necessarily be diminished? Text has been around for only a blip compared to oral communication. I love reading, and it feels bad to see it decline, but I'm trying to b…

Most comprehension is down, and seemingly purposefully so, not on the part of the students but in the effects of the environment the student must participate in.

Waiting for Superman (2010) pretty much covers most of the issues, but can't sufficiently convey the students whose futures were wasted from bad tutelage.

There is an opportunity cost for everything.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#50

Post by sureglymop »

donsupreme wrote: post #46
smogcutter wrote: post #25

For my sins, I teach middle school. There’s plenty of different angles on this, but I’d like to highlight a recent one that may not immediately occur to people here without young children: COVID retirements hit the elementary schools particularly hard. Teaching high school on zoom is one thing, now imagine teaching 3rd. So the veteran elementary teachers retired or quit, and there’s no adequate pipeline to replace th…

At some AI going to be the best teacher for any children

Not sure if you're being sarcastic. I don't know about you but the best teachers I ever had were those I felt a personal human connection with. It may have been because they had shown kindness or that they were overly interested in their own subject or something else, but there was a sense of "not wanting to disappoint" the "good teachers" and thus pay more attention and try to excel.

I think we are very far from such a personal connection to an AI. If that connection isn't there, there's no real stake.

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