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How bad are childhood literacy rates?

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Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#21

Post by SoftTalker »

SamPatt wrote: post #11

This seems bad on its face, but I wonder if this is specific to reading comprehension or to all comprehension? If our society moved from text to video as the primary way to transmit information, would our ability to communicate and comprehend the world necessarily be diminished? Text has been around for only a blip compared to oral communication. I love reading, and it feels bad to see it decline, but I'm trying to b…

Not sure. To me, there is something about reading that grabs my attention more than video or images. As I'm reading, I can stop and think without having to hit pause. I can reread a sentence or paragraph without rewinding. I proceed at the pace of my understanding, not at the pace of the video.

And certainly, although video creation is pretty easy today, it's still dependent on a lot of technology. I can write with a pencil and a notebook.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#22

Post by logsr »

dec0dedab0de wrote: post #8

Maybe reading books is less important than ever, and the kids are adapting to the new world. I am reminded of this xkcd, which I just realized Im about a decade behind on. https://xkcd.com/1414/

literacy is only important if you don't want to live a subsistence poverty lifestyle. other than that, completely useless.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#24

Post by ryao »

HEmanZ wrote: post #17
ryao wrote: post #13

When I was young, I was amazed at how they would try to teach us English grammar and spelling, then have us read books like Huckleberry Finn that undid 6 months to a year worth of English language education. When you are young and you do not really a firm grasp of the right way to do things, being forced to spend substantial time “reading” books that show the wrong way is counterproductive. It was like having a const…

Are you being sarcastic? I completely disagree with you here. Even at a young age people can understand that Huck Finn is a novel told from the perspective of a southern boy in the 1800s, not how you’re “supposed to write” when in another class you have to write and essay about Marie Curie. I think I was like 7 when I could tell this difference. And Huck Finn is for 12-14 year olds. Books like Huck Finn are critical…

> Are you being sarcastic?

I was serious. I cited Huckleberry Finn because it was the most egregious of the books that were forced on us, but it was by no means the only one. Many examples of incorrect grammar were normalized by books and I hated being forced to read them because I could see how it was confusing me.

> Books like Huck Finn are critical to building the model in your head that every writer has a different perspective, that they will present differently, and even perceive differently.

I did not learn this. I am in my 30s and I had no idea that this was the point until reading your comment. In hindsight, what I learned from books like this is that nothing made sense since I would be told one thing is correct and then be forced to read things that normalized the opposite and by the time I finished reading, I had forgotten the correct way. Expecting a child that knows nothing and is literally a blank slate to learn this lesson from a forced reading of this book is expecting too much. It certainly was in my case. It is a disservice to the child and is contrary to the goal of establishing English literacy.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#25

Post by smogcutter »

For my sins, I teach middle school. There’s plenty of different angles on this, but I’d like to highlight a recent one that may not immediately occur to people here without young children: COVID retirements hit the elementary schools particularly hard.

Teaching high school on zoom is one thing, now imagine teaching 3rd. So the veteran elementary teachers retired or quit, and there’s no adequate pipeline to replace them, especially in underserved communities.

Coming through the system now is a cohort of children whose k-5 teachers have been a rotating cast of subs and ineffective new hires, and it shows.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#26

Post by SoftTalker »

WillAdams wrote: post #15
SamPatt wrote: post #11

This seems bad on its face, but I wonder if this is specific to reading comprehension or to all comprehension? If our society moved from text to video as the primary way to transmit information, would our ability to communicate and comprehend the world necessarily be diminished? Text has been around for only a blip compared to oral communication. I love reading, and it feels bad to see it decline, but I'm trying to b…

The thing is, back before writing became prevalent, Shakespeare would worry that his plays would be plagiarized by someone in the audience watching a performance, then afterwards, writing down the entire thing from memory. Similarly, _The Metamorphoses_, and _The Iliad_, and _The Odyssey_ were part of an oral tradition and their structures were created to as to facilitate memorization and recitation --- how many poem…

I couldn't even read those books. Forget about memorizing them.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#27

Post by nmarinov »

ryao wrote: post #13

When I was young, I was amazed at how they would try to teach us English grammar and spelling, then have us read books like Huckleberry Finn that undid 6 months to a year worth of English language education. When you are young and you do not really a firm grasp of the right way to do things, being forced to spend substantial time “reading” books that show the wrong way is counterproductive. It was like having a const…

Hmm, I get where you're coming from and I'd agree if it was math or physics or chemistry but I'm not so sure about languages.

I learned English as a second language and while I did have formal lessons, the most bang for buck learning came from stuff like Huckleberry Finn and forums and random songs (especially hip hop) and cartoons. Not because they are "good english" but precisely because they are "bad english" but still capture the spirit of the language. The meaning is there and it's English as used by native speakers. i.e.: It helped me internalize the language. Maybe it was because I had no one around to practice informal English and I needed that and it's different for native speakers. Dunno.

I can't say it didn't confuse me but I know it didn't negatively impact my scores. Despite not doing my homework and not even having the required textbooks or studying properly, it was the subject I had the easiest time and best grades aside from math or programming. And it's not like the bar was low - we had to pass C1 on the CEFR and I've easily passed C2 and have almost 100% on TOEFL and similar.

Also I'm not particularly gifted with languages - I don't know grammar at all and I struggle speaking all the time even in my native language.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#29

Post by ryao »

chimpansteve wrote: post #20
ryao wrote: post #13

When I was young, I was amazed at how they would try to teach us English grammar and spelling, then have us read books like Huckleberry Finn that undid 6 months to a year worth of English language education. When you are young and you do not really a firm grasp of the right way to do things, being forced to spend substantial time “reading” books that show the wrong way is counterproductive. It was like having a const…

Is English your first language? If it isn't, I completely agree with you. However if it is, then I would make the argument that it's exactly the right way to teach it, particularly to young people. As you point out, it's a very fluid language with a lot of rules that are completely arbitrary. As a native speaker, it's more important getting to grips with the, I dunno what we'd call it on here, pseudocode rather than…

English is my first language. However, I had an undiagnosed learning disability until college.

That said, to name one example, I do not think an understanding of adverbs versus adjectives can develop effectively if one is constantly exposed to people using adjectives as adverbs. It causes a loss of nuance that comes back to bite people, especially when it causes friction with those who know better. I remember in the 8th grade, we saw the play 1776, they were singing adverbs ending in -ly and I had no idea what the nuance was aside from the rhyming. I do not think many of my classmates did either.

The common defense of the status quo seems to be blind to the underlying problems in English education. The status quo is untenable since the issues with English literacy are now measurable.

Re: How bad are childhood literacy rates?

#30

Post by [deleted] »

ryao wrote: post #13

When I was young, I was amazed at how they would try to teach us English grammar and spelling, then have us read books like Huckleberry Finn that undid 6 months to a year worth of English language education. When you are young and you do not really a firm grasp of the right way to do things, being forced to spend substantial time “reading” books that show the wrong way is counterproductive. It was like having a const…

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