Live data from Hacker News

Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

nickoneill.com

21–30 of 91 posts

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#21
There's a difference between positive euphemism/spin and outright fabrications.

Also, when creating/leading you often have to preemptively believe things at the edge (or just over the edge) of plausibility, in order to have any chance to "make them true". Such statements are not 'true' in a rigorous academic or legal sense, and even have a risk of becoming completely falsified as events develop.

But at the time and in the spirit in which they were offered, they declare the speaker's honest hopes and beliefs about what's possible. Sometimes the speaker is even deceiving themself, by signalling more certainty than is warranted about uncertain outcomes.

Culturally, people should understand that implicit disclaimers apply... as when a coach tells their team, "we're going to outplay our opponent" or a commander tells their soldiers, "we're going to take this objective". The statements are aspirational, not yet literally true, and they are spoken aloud as an intentional mechanism for increasing their chances of coming true.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#22

I agree with the general point of this, but disagree on the tone and the implications. The main thrust here seems to be "everyone lies, get over it", which seems counterproductive. There also seems to be some equivocation over, say, using a true but empty metric to promote your business... and photoshopping yourself into a picture with a celeb, or falsely claiming to be an employee of a company. These things are both…

Using a "using a true but empty metric to promote your business" is more like being creative in that the reader, if careful, should be able to spot the bullshit. The same as when you read product labels or any advertising copy.

I've seen web hosting companies refer to their hard disk space as "premium" storage or with other adjectives to make it appear as if you are getting something which is better than an ordinary seagate server grade hard drives (as if some server company is going to use consumer grade drives). Colo companies talk extensively about biometric security at their facilities (note if your stuff is that important that you care about that you should probably go onsite and verify it, right?).

So what the startups are really doing is just what ad agencies have done for decades. They are using words to sell their product in a creative way.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#23

What especially bothers me about this sort of trend is that it forces those of us who aren't big on bullshitting to do it anyway. The impression I've gotten is that prospective investors and the like expect that you're going to contort your numbers into a just-over-the-horizon hockey stick. So, any stance that rejects this fake 'crushing it'[1] mentality is viewed as an indication that you're failing miserably. [1] F…

Look, if you're talking to investors, you're most likely making a sales pitch. Any competent salesman is going to of course emphasize the positive aspects of what he's trying to sell. If you can say, "We’re operating at X run rate" and investors are going to react positively to that, you'd be stupid not to and it doesn't make you a liar, even if Mr. O'Neill doesn't find it to be a valuable metric.

I agree that there's a fine line between making a legitimate sales pitch for your startup and lying to your investors, but the article doesn't address that point at all.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#24

What especially bothers me about this sort of trend is that it forces those of us who aren't big on bullshitting to do it anyway. The impression I've gotten is that prospective investors and the like expect that you're going to contort your numbers into a just-over-the-horizon hockey stick. So, any stance that rejects this fake 'crushing it'[1] mentality is viewed as an indication that you're failing miserably. [1] F…

Look, if you're talking to investors, you're most likely making a sales pitch. Any competent salesman is going to of course emphasize the positive aspects of what he's trying to sell. If you can say, "We’re operating at X run rate" and investors are going to react positively to that, you'd be stupid not to and it doesn't make you a liar, even if Mr. O'Neill doesn't find it to be a valuable metric. I agree that there'…

Agree completely, but I think there's a world of difference between emphasizing the positive and lying. Saying "our revenue is at an annual run rate of $1mm based upon the fact that we booked $83,000 in revenue in this month" is wildly different than fabricating numbers. ARR not being a particular useful metric on its own doesn't change this.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#25
When I was about 12 I remember doing some school craft competition where we had to make and then sell our wares to our teachers. A teacher said something to me that's always stuck, but I always struggle with following.

It was "Don't point out your own short comings"

I was saying things like 'in the final run the paint job will be better', highlighting the deficiencies of our Xmas decorations instead of highlighting the positives.

If you've ever met a good sales person working for your company, they're almost blind to the deficiencies in your products. It's not that they're deceiving you, it's that their internal reality is that that they see the positives, that's all they talk about. That's the product they're selling. If you try and say 'well this bit isn't great', they give you a confused look.

As soon as the 'negatives' click, their sales plummet. It's a built in defence mechanism to add confidence and to be honest it's up to the client to see the deficiencies, not the sales person.

That's kind of like a start up founder is, they've got to focus on the positives just to keep going. To stay working the hours, to keep their team going. To keep believing it will work out in the end. Having been part of a failed startup, I think the time for honest reflection and learning is afterwards.

But saying you've met x and y and z, worked for a company you haven't and photoshopping yourself in photos?

That's not the same thing at all.

That's just fraud.

Let's not conflate the two as this article has.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#26
I've just returned from a three-week vacation, and one thing that strikes me as I re-enter our little world of tech is how much of the attention and focus of our incredibly rich and fortunate community is spent on bitterness and negativity. I'm not claiming any kind of superiority (I've engaged in my share of negativity), it's just an observation, and I want to see if I can avoid it in the future while still participating in the extreme mental stimulation that drew me to tech in the first place.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#27
It seems disingenuous to compare what "Shirls" did with many of the points made in the article.

"We're doing well, our investors are happy!" is saving face (or, perhaps they want to believe it so badly that they do).

What she did is the equivalent of falsely saying "We have an investment from Andreessen Horowitz -- see, here's a copy of our term sheet!" and then using the person's credit card to buy yourself a plane ticket.

Everybody lies a bit to themselves feel better when things are going badly. Congressmen leave to spend time with their family, breakups are always "mutual", etc. This is completely different than the TC article.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#28
The author may have a point in general, but using Holstein is sounding more and more like the wrong example to stand behind.

One of the comments in the blog post points to a very in-depth betabeat article that says that Holstein was involved with much more than just name dropping... she has been accused of credit card fraud and ripping off people around her. If the allegations are true, it might be that she is a criminal and a pathological liar with likely mental issues.

http://betabeat.com/2012/08/shirley-hornstein-shirls-credit-...

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#29

I've just returned from a three-week vacation, and one thing that strikes me as I re-enter our little world of tech is how much of the attention and focus of our incredibly rich and fortunate community is spent on bitterness and negativity. I'm not claiming any kind of superiority (I've engaged in my share of negativity), it's just an observation, and I want to see if I can avoid it in the future while still particip…

I think part of the hacker ethic is not being afraid to point out when you think something's wrong, because it's how communities (and software projects) improve. You may take this post as negativity, but I think it's intended to start a discussion about how things can improve, which is a positive thing.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Filled With Liars

#30

The author may have a point in general, but using Holstein is sounding more and more like the wrong example to stand behind. One of the comments in the blog post points to a very in-depth betabeat article that says that Holstein was involved with much more than just name dropping... she has been accused of credit card fraud and ripping off people around her. If the allegations are true, it might be that she is a crim…

That isn't necessarily credit card fraud though. It could just be unapproved expenses and incidentals.

When I worked with Fortune 500 Co, I had unapproved expenses that I had to pay for. I wouldn't consider that "stealing." All we know from that article is "several thousands".. could that be dry cleaning bills over 3 years or is she buying HDTV's on amazon. hard to say.

The problem I have with all this, is all this evidence seems rather circumstantial. I don't even know this woman or have any interest in this topic other than playing contrarian and thinking to myself if someone kept tabs on all my poor behavior over the course of a few years, I'm sure I too could come out looking like a pathological liar with mental issues.

Post reply on HN